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Post by Laggy.RETURNS on Oct 19, 2011 6:46:06 GMT -5
I don't think Bonnaroo will be affected, not at this point yet. But I can think of other festivals that might. And it's a step down a slippery slope. What do you think?
"Under federal law, a property owner can face 20 years in prison if prosecutors can prove the owner knowingly allowed illegal drugs to be used or sold on his premises—even if he isn't directly involved.
James Tebeau learned first-hand. For years, he has been the owner and operator of a 350-acre concert venue in rural Missouri called Camp Zoe. Weekend concerts routinely drew thousands of music fans. Mr. Tebeau, a member of a Grateful Dead tribute band, also performed there.
In the fall of 2010, federal and state law-enforcement officials initiated a forfeiture action against the property after a four-year, multiagency investigation. the Justice Department alleged in a Missouri federal court filing that Mr. Tebeau allowed illegal drugs to be sold and used at concerts.
In June, the Justice Department filed a criminal charge against Mr. Tebeau for the alleged drug use. He has pleaded not guilty. the forfeiture action has since been incorporated into the criminal case.
Asked for comment, N. Scott Rosenblum, Mr. Tebeau's criminal attorney, said, "We are in the process of evaluating all options."
Since 2000, the criminal statute involving drug-linked properties has been used in more than 500 cases, according to data collected by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University.
Defenders of Mr. Tebeau say his case is an example of government overreach, given the ubiquitous use of drugs at many music concerts.
"If they can charge Jimmy Tebeau, they could charge just about any concert venue owner with these crimes," said David Roland, director of litigation at the Freedom Center of Missouri, a nonprofit law firm focusing on constitutional law issues.
U.S. Attorney Richard Callahan, whose office in St. Louis is prosecuting the case, disagreed: "Our office is a capable of distinguishing between a music festival with incidental drug use and a drug festival with incidental music.""
Under federal law, a property owner can face 20 years in prison if prosecutors can prove the owner knowingly allowed illegal NO NO WORD!!! to be used or sold on his premises—even if he isn't directly involved.
absurd. this could apply not only to festival grounds but smaller venues as well... $$ and resources are better spent elsewhere.
I would like to point out I went to zoe 15 times over 4 years, and I saw some AMAZING music out there. They never had a lot of bands but a lot of what they got was really impressive. There was drug use out there, and it was pretty wide open no more so than Bonnaroo 06 however imo. Camp Zoe was probably the most beautiful festival grounds there have ever been I am really sorry to see them go.
I don't see how this could possibly be proven in court.
They do not have to prove it, in fact in the case of federal forfeiture laws you have the burden of proving innocence. Basically it is a big scam and what they do to step on the neck of law abiding citizens who they can not get any other way.
They do not have to prove it, in fact in the case of federal forfeiture laws you have the burden of proving innocence. Basically it is a big scam and what they do to step on the neck of law abiding citizens who they can not get any other way.
Christ. Shut your everloving hairfarming faux-hippie mouth. "Law abiding citizens they can not get any other way?" Give me a break.
Fuck you, take your aggrieved Republican law and order tightass schtick fold it until it is all corners and put it where it will do the most good. Anyone should be worried when the federal gov't is seizing private property without charging anyone with a crime. It is exactly like what they do when they can not get you any other way. This country is in a financial crisis and all we can spend our quacking money on is seizing land because some hippies were out there listening to the dead? It is quacking ridiculous, and people have every right to be outraged.
After all if we are using the rationale of pervasive drug use to seize private property I am going to go ahead and assume every venue that Phish has ever played in will be up next, followed by all the stadiums where Waters is doing The Wall. Not to mention on top of this when they came out they seized the money from the festivals and froze his bank accounts. This was the money to pay taxes with and they had never been late paying up before. Because the accounts are seized they are now charging him with tax evasion even though they are holding the tax money in escrow. But yeah it is a fair rational process, not an example of big government overreach.
Last Edit: Oct 21, 2011 8:50:26 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Christ. Shut your everloving hairfarming faux-hippie mouth. "Law abiding citizens they can not get any other way?" Give me a break.
I get that it's your "thing" to be a dick, but come the fuck on, really? I know I'm not alone in thinking that there comes a point when it's not funny anymore.
Christ. Shut your everloving hairfarming faux-hippie mouth. "Law abiding citizens they can not get any other way?" Give me a break.
I get that it's your "thing" to be a dick, but come the quack on, really? I know I'm not alone in thinking that there comes a point when it's not funny anymore.
I don't know. I find him amusing about 99% of the time. The other 1% he's a foul mouthed suit with a good vocabulary and a passion for ticking off Wolf.
Post by popsicle sarah on Oct 21, 2011 9:43:08 GMT -5
I don't like when people are shitheads to other people for kicks. And I don't understand how it can be fulfilling to put someone down. There are plenty of brilliant ways to be funny without resorting to being mean.
I get that it's your "thing" to be a dick, but come the quack on, really? I know I'm not alone in thinking that there comes a point when it's not funny anymore.
It has nothing to do with being a dick and everything to do with calling someone out for specious logic and a fallacy of false cause.
I understand that's what the purpose was, but adding the insults at the beginning of your statement was unnecessary.
We obviously differ on how we think we should treat other people.
Fuck you, take your aggrieved Republican law and order tightass schtick fold it until it is all corners and put it where it will do the most good. Anyone should be worried when the federal gov't is seizing private property without charging anyone with a crime. It is exactly like what they do when they can not get you any other way. This country is in a financial crisis and all we can spend our quacking money on is seizing land because some hippies were out there listening to the dead? It is quacking ridiculous, and people have every right to be outraged.
After all if we are using the rationale of pervasive drug use to seize private property I am going to go ahead and assume every venue that Phish has ever played in will be up next, followed by all the stadiums where Waters is doing The Wall. Not to mention on top of this when they came out they seized the money from the festivals and froze his bank accounts. This was the money to pay taxes with and they had never been late paying up before. Because the accounts are seized they are now charging him with tax evasion even though they are holding the tax money in escrow. But yeah it is a fair rational process, not an example of big government overreach.
First, I'm not a Republican. Second, your anger towards that party on this subject is misplaced - last I checked, the Justice Department is part of the federal executive office, which means it's good old Democrats making the calls on this one. HOPE AND CHANGE, BRAH.
And third, you're changing your horse midstream. First it was "law abiding citizens" that were getting hassled, and that was your gripe. Now, suddenly you're upset because it's a waste of taxpayer dollars, and we're in a financial crisis? Give me a break.
Fourth and finally, since you can't seem to fathom why these knuckleheads got hassled while every other arena, venue, etc. where bands play isn't getting the same thing, perhaps it's that pretty much all those venues have strict anti-illegal substance policies; clearly the hourly security guards hired ignore/overlook those at times, but the fact that you get patted down as you go in, and that most places have posted signs/instructions stating that such substances are NOT allowed saves them from getting the same hassle.
The same thing goes for Bonnaroo - while they're pretty lax in their security (insert random whining Inforooers who were hassled by the Man at Bonnaroo 07/08/09/10/11 and will never go back because the festie has lost it's way, custie), they make it clear that illegal substances aren't tolerated, and they make a show of searching cars/people for them. Hence, they're not actively promoting it, and clearly these venues and festivals don't exist for the sole purpose of a bunch of morons getting together in a field to take copious amounts of narcotics and listen to some third-rate knock off Dead tribute band noodle and warble their way through "Bird Song."
Sweet Melt.....
You are obviously not worth trying to have a rational discussion on the subject so I am just going to stick with Fuck off, and go find something you can bill somebody for you arrogant piece of sit.
Juggs is right, for the most part. It is pretty fucked up that they can freeze someones accounts and then try to get them on tax evasion even though THEY freeze your accounts. It's fucked up that they give a shit about a bunch of people in a field in the middle of nowhere causing harm to no one (except maybe themselves). But, Jess, I'm pretty sure you are one of those people that say to people who get busted on the way to Bonnaroo or the people that got busted by the supposed undercover cops in 2010, etc., that if they are going to choose to do drugs, they have to be aware of and willing to accept the consequences of those actions, which are illegal. Which is a reasonable position to have, but you have to have the same standards for everyone. This guy running Camp Zoe clearly had no intention of even giving the illusion that he was trying in any way, shape, or form to comply with drug laws. And so in that aspect, you can say that it was wrong and that they have no evidence of his guilt, etc, but... isn't he guilty? hasn't he broken laws, allowing that stuff to go on in his festival with no attempts to stop it?
Also, I could be wrong about remembering that to be your standpoint on people getting busted at Bonnaroo, and if so, my bad, but it IS my standpoint and I feel the same about this situation.
Juggs is right, for the most part. It is pretty quacked up that they can freeze someones accounts and then try to get them on tax evasion even though THEY freeze your accounts. It's quacked up that they give a poop about a bunch of people in a field in the middle of nowhere causing harm to no one (except maybe themselves). But, Jess, I'm pretty sure you are one of those people that say to people who get busted on the way to Bonnaroo or the people that got busted by the supposed undercover cops in 2010, etc., that if they are going to choose to do NO NO WORD!!! they have to be aware of and willing to accept the consequences of those actions, which are illegal. Which is a reasonable position to have, but you have to have the same standards for everyone. This guy running Camp Zoe clearly had no intention of even giving the illusion that he was trying in any way, shape, or form to comply with NO NO WORD!!! laws. And so in that aspect, you can say that it was wrong and that they have no evidence of his guilt, etc, but... isn't he guilty? hasn't he broken laws, allowing that stuff to go on in his festival with no attempts to stop it?
Also, I could be wrong about remembering that to be your standpoint on people getting busted at Bonnaroo, and if so, my bad, but it IS my standpoint and I feel the same about this situation.
So how many times were you out there? I have been to the Wakarusa grounds, AllGood, Deer Fields in Asheville, and maybe ten or twelve other smaller festial venues over the past 10 years and I hit zoe up 12 or so times as well.
They had security, they searched cars just as much, and on the whole the staff had more or less the same amount of care about it as say last weekend at Harvest up at Mulberry mtn. or as much as the security cared at MSG for the LCD show, or as much as the Cincinatti people did when I saw Phish in 09. I am sorry but the level of security in terms of incidental drug use and sales at all these venues has more or less been the same.
The big difference is all the others rake in tons of money for their respective communities so they are left alone. Zoe's biggest problem was the town to the north of it (Salem) that was constantly pissed about their lack of revenue so they set up roadblocks instead. I have been to zoe and AllGood and harvest with roofan, and teine and both can back me up on zoe not being the shadiest of the three.
Not trying to stomp on your opinion MC, but if you were not there you do not really know how bad it was.
You are obviously not worth trying to have a rational discussion on the subject so I am just going to stick with Fuck off, and go find something you can bill somebody for you arrogant piece of sit.
Are you kidding? All I did was point out to you exactly WHY this one festival got targeted and WHY they don't go after other festivals or concert venues. It wasn't a reactionary, anri-anybody response, but rather an on-point addressing of precisely the thing you and others raised as a concern.
A wise man once said that it's easier to forgive others for being wrong than for being right, so I understand why you're so quick to dismiss my arguments.
Are you kidding? All you did was throw around insults and show your big blue ass to everyone like a horny baboon whilst expressing an opinion about something you have no first hand knowledge of. I am not even going to try to discuss any topic with someone who can not even bring himself to be at least slightly more civil than a 15 year old with a ritalin overdose and a bad case of acne.
"...a music festival with incidental NO NO WORD!!! use and a NO NO WORD!!! festival with incidental music."
The sad truth is that a lot of people going to these events do view it as the latter. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing if it creates a cleaner, less shady environment at festivals.
"...a music festival with incidental NO NO WORD!!! use and a NO NO WORD!!! festival with incidental music."
The sad truth is that a lot of people going to these events do view it as the latter. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing if it creates a cleaner, less shady environment at festivals.
I don't personally see why there can not be both, I mean sure the idea of a Bonnaroo with no corn, or crazy tripping kids, or psychedelic fueled antics sounds fun to some of you I guess. Personally the sense of anything goes and the personal freedom I enjoy is a big part of what makes me keep coming back. Also I will stand by what I have said three times and nobody has addressed. What was going on at zoe. was no different than Bonnaroo, Wakarusa, AllGood, Big Cypress, Spirit of the Suwanee, etc.... So to act like it was the fault of the festival is ridiculous. Or if it was every other festival is just as at fault.
Are you kidding? All you did was throw around insults and show your big blue ass to everyone like a horny baboon whilst expressing an opinion about something you have no first hand knowledge of. I am not even going to try to discuss any topic with someone who can not even bring himself to be at least slightly more civil than a 15 year old with a ritalin overdose and a bad case of acne.
Oh, there were insults (aren't there always?), but there was also a direct response to pretty much every point made, which you conveniently ignore.
Again, it's okay - I understand your rage and anger at being let down by the Justice Department, and its tacit betrayal of the promise of hope, tolerance and respect promised by our current administration. I hope you'll join me in making sure that we elect government representatives in 2012 who do a better job at reflecting the will of the populace.
I will discuss anything with you when you do not start the conversation of by being a antagonistic shithead. Thats ok I understand all your rage and anger about the bar exam though.
It's not really the psychedelics that are the problem, Jess (although research chemicals being sold as something else is incredibly dangerous). It makes me feel uncomfortable to see needles in port-a-potties and laying on the ground.
I get that it's your "thing" to be a dick, but come the quack on, really? I know I'm not alone in thinking that there comes a point when it's not funny anymore.
I don't know. I find him amusing about 99% of the time. The other 1% he's a foul mouthed suit with a good vocabulary and a passion for ticking off Wolf.
god no. if anything i want to be juggs when i grow up
Fuck you, take your aggrieved Republican law and order tightass schtick fold it until it is all corners and put it where it will do the most good. Anyone should be worried when the federal gov't is seizing private property without charging anyone with a crime. It is exactly like what they do when they can not get you any other way. This country is in a financial crisis and all we can spend our quacking money on is seizing land because some hippies were out there listening to the dead? It is quacking ridiculous, and people have every right to be outraged.
After all if we are using the rationale of pervasive drug use to seize private property I am going to go ahead and assume every venue that Phish has ever played in will be up next, followed by all the stadiums where Waters is doing The Wall. Not to mention on top of this when they came out they seized the money from the festivals and froze his bank accounts. This was the money to pay taxes with and they had never been late paying up before. Because the accounts are seized they are now charging him with tax evasion even though they are holding the tax money in escrow. But yeah it is a fair rational process, not an example of big government overreach.
First, I'm not a Republican. Second, your anger towards that party on this subject is misplaced - last I checked, the Justice Department is part of the federal executive office, which means it's good old Democrats making the calls on this one. HOPE AND CHANGE, BRAH.
And third, you're changing your horse midstream. First it was "law abiding citizens" that were getting hassled, and that was your gripe. Now, suddenly you're upset because it's a waste of taxpayer dollars, and we're in a financial crisis? Give me a break.
Fourth and finally, since you can't seem to fathom why these knuckleheads got hassled while every other arena, venue, etc. where bands play isn't getting the same thing, perhaps it's that pretty much all those venues have strict anti-illegal substance policies; clearly the hourly security guards hired ignore/overlook those at times, but the fact that you get patted down as you go in, and that most places have posted signs/instructions stating that such substances are NOT allowed saves them from getting the same hassle.
The same thing goes for Bonnaroo - while they're pretty lax in their security (insert random whining Inforooers who were hassled by the Man at Bonnaroo 07/08/09/10/11 and will never go back because the festie has lost it's way, custie), they make it clear that illegal substances aren't tolerated, and they make a show of searching cars/people for them. Hence, they're not actively promoting it, and clearly these venues and festivals don't exist for the sole purpose of a bunch of morons getting together in a field to take copious amounts of narcotics and listen to some third-rate knock off Dead tribute band noodle and warble their way through "Bird Song."
Jess did you not read this post? How is this not a well-thought out response to the "argument" in this thread?
Post by thisismyname on Oct 24, 2011 0:51:57 GMT -5
Well here's a thought, if Roo can get away with their alcohol policy (no wristbands when using a ticket system, at least at the beer garden), then I think this new law/crackdown shouldn't be a big issue for them either. Obviously the local government is on their side, and that's what matters in cases like this.
It's not really the psychedelics that are the problem, Jess (although research chemicals being sold as something else is incredibly dangerous). It makes me feel uncomfortable to see needles in port-a-potties and laying on the ground.
So which festival have you been to where you saw needles on the ground? I never saw them at zoe, in fact I have never seen them anywhere short of Phish 99 lots.
