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Post by candyflippedaround on Mar 10, 2009 20:02:22 GMT -5
this is hilarious. a 6 months to a year ago i would have argued till i was blue in the face that there could not be a God, mainly because there was no room for it. where does it live? it cant live in the space in front of me because, even if i cant see it the space is already filled with countless molecules of various gases.
Now i know theres God and I know where it is. I dont want to argue because i know you dont have to believe in God to be influenced by it. I just tell people there is a God so that when they eventually realize hopefully they remember me telling them "You dont have to believe, but you will find out"
Post by wonderllama on Mar 10, 2009 20:41:40 GMT -5
Count me in the religious but questioning it category. Justmeg's comments are pretty much sums up my general attitude as well. I'm an engineer by profession and an very analytical thinker. I question everything and try to get all sides of the issues when I can. However, we will never be able to scientifically prove/disprove the existence of God, and I happen to choose to put my faith in the divinity of Christ as well as some of the other aspects of Christianity that you pretty much just have to believe or disbelieve. I was raised Assemblies of God, which most would consider "evangelical". They believe in speaking in tougues and a lot of other stuff that most people deem kinda crazy, but I can tell you that the stereotyp[e of "evangelicals" and cramming religion down people throats definately doesn't apply to my church, so not all are created equal. I very rarely attend church anymore as I'm well versed in their teachings and quite honestly don't get much out of it now. I'll go again regularly once I have a kid to give them a moral base.
I personally believe that assuming God is real and created all things and resides in all things, then the best way to get to know him is through observing and studying his creations. The Bible is a great guide, but really it is part history book, part ancient societal law, and part religious allegory written by people hundreds to thousands of years ago. Things that were unexplainable back then (origin of man, massive natural phenomena, etc.) were naturally attributed to "God". Taking the Bible as the literal word of God, knowing what we know now through science and technology, is ignorant and denying the logic and reason that God has blessed us with. The Bible has been translated and used so many times by humans through the course of history, that one needs to read it with a critical mind to determine what really needs to be gained from it. Many teachings from the Church I have cast aside because of this.
I really can't stand it when I see "Christians" damning people to hell for disagreeing with their philosiphy, and I also get really angry when they try to push it into politics. Christ never cast people away, nor did he force people to follow him. He loved all people regarless of who they were or what they did. The Bible gives a personal guide to living your life, but all too often people try to make those personal guidelines apply to society as a whole.
I don't know that God even exists, nor do I know if Christianity is the only or correct path to God. In fact I believe that God will show him/herself to anyone willing to seek him/her regardless of what path they choose.
Post by candyflippedaround on Mar 10, 2009 23:06:33 GMT -5
i love the similarities/parallels that run throughout almost every religious/spiritual work
Those who have faith and do righteous deeds, they are the best ofcreatures. Their reward is with God: Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; God well pleased with them, and they with Him; all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.
Islam. Qur'an 98.7-8
Having realized the Self, which is soundless, intangible, formless, undecaying, and likewise tasteless, eternal, and odorless; having realized That which is without beginning and end, beyond the Great, and unchanging--one is freed from the jaws of death.
Also, lots of the dumb little practices (going to church, celebrating holidays, fasting, etc.) are pretty useless. However, there needs to be a spiritual aspect to humanity
Going to church isn't dumb. It's only dumb if it's only done out of habit and obligation. Speaking from a Christian perspective, God made the church for community. You can be a believer all by yourself, but it's a lot harder. That's even why we have Inforoo, is for community with people of like minds. That's an important part of what meeting together in a building or a home or wherever is about, aside from worshiping, it's about community.
Okie dokie...one line of mine has been quoted and quoted and argued and argued and it's my fault for writing it poorly.
Going to church and celebrating holidays isn't dumb if you do it for a reason. However, it seems that a lot of people do these things out of obligation. I know many people that simply go to church because they were raised to and celebrate holidays because they're supposed to. That's retarded in my opinion.
Caandyflippedaround, I totally agree with you. Before I couldn't see how there could possibly be a god, now I can't see how there possibly can't be a god.
Mattlikesrock, I also agree with you. I think I mentioned it how we need spiritual communities in my rant. Community is great, and you learn so much through interaction with others. In spiritual terms, it helps you get closer to God (anyone see the NIN reference, eh? eh? eh?).
Though I am extremely pleased to see many people here defend their beliefs with logical reasoning and not simple initial reaction emotions. Very very cool. I'd love to see some more topics debated and see what everyone thinks.
Also, I noticed a couple people were saying they were raised Catholic and became atheists which really doesn't surprise me because looking back after studying things at a higher level, the Church doesn't really seem to educate kids very well.
You'd think at some point in CCD classes they would tell you little tidbits such as not to interpret the Old Testament literally or as historically accurate.
"You mean Adam and Eve weren't really the first people?" No, sorry Johnny.
I'm a catholic to atheist. went to catholic school for 12 years.
i was never led to believe adam and eve were real people, in fact, i was specifically told the opposite. but that is a slippery slope...
"this is a parable" - "this part is real" - "this was just this crazy dream" etc, etc....
Post by mattlikesrock on Mar 11, 2009 9:19:19 GMT -5
idioteque, I have a thought to throw out at you. (If you don't like it throw it right back. : ) If some people teach you things about the Bible that don't make sense or are not accurate, and you correctly reject it, would that mean that you'd have to reject everything about the Bible? If you're open to assuming that maybe the Bible is right, maybe it's not (I'm not trying to make a judgment either way right now), you would just need to reject what they taught you and not the Bible itself. At least not because what they taught you wasn't true.
I'm not trying to get you to accept the Bible wholesale just because I said that, obviously, but I would like you to consider the fact that just because some people teach error about the Bible that's not a reason to write it off completely.
Though I am extremely pleased to see many people here defend their beliefs with logical reasoning and not simple initial reaction emotions. Very very cool. I'd love to see some more topics debated and see what everyone thinks.
I agree. It's annoying to have people run in screaming "You're an idiot for believing that!" or "I know what I feel!". Pointless.
I personally believe that assuming God is real and created all things and resides in all things, then the best way to get to know him is through observing and studying his creations. The Bible is a great guide, but really it is part history book, part ancient societal law, and part religious allegory written by people hundreds to thousands of years ago. Things that were unexplainable back then (origin of man, massive natural phenomena, etc.) were naturally attributed to "God". Taking the Bible as the literal word of God, knowing what we know now through science and technology, is ignorant and denying the logic and reason that God has blessed us with. The Bible has been translated and used so many times by humans through the course of history, that one needs to read it with a critical mind to determine what really needs to be gained from it. Many teachings from the Church I have cast aside because of this.
I think this is just an awesome way of looking at it
wonderllama totally echoes my sentiments. It's hard for me to look at the beautiful things in nature, and perfect patterns, similarities in animals and not believe it's from a master designer. In my mind arguments like evolution vs. creation can be misleading because maybe God created evolution. I don't think interpreting everything literally is the way to go. Also if you get super deep and look at quantum mechanics, scientists still have things they can't define on the quantum level, and some people take that as being God. I'm not judging anyone either way, and yay for us here for being able to have a civil back and forth discussion with minimal bickering. "What the bleep do we know" is a pretty good movie talking about this, but it was funded by some group (not sure what they're called), so info may be biased, but very interesting movie, nonetheless.
idioteque, I have a thought to throw out at you. (If you don't like it throw it right back. : ) If some people teach you things about the Bible that don't make sense or are not accurate, and you correctly reject it, would that mean that you'd have to reject everything about the Bible? If you're open to assuming that maybe the Bible is right, maybe it's not (I'm not trying to make a judgment either way right now), you would just need to reject what they taught you and not the Bible itself. At least not because what they taught you wasn't true.
I'm not trying to get you to accept the Bible wholesale just because I said that, obviously, but I would like you to consider the fact that just because some people teach error about the Bible that's not a reason to write it off completely.
I accept the bible as a historical text. a long time ago, i even read it - and might do so again. i do not accept it is divinely inspired any more than other religious texts.
i also believe that it is just a collection of books that were distilled from a much larger collection of books at (i think) the nicean council. there are errors, omissions, discrepancies, and lots of stuff lost in translations from not just generations of scribes with quills, but shifting the text from one language to the next. also, much of it is paraphrasing of even older religious texts/stories that are no longer practiced.
but it is a slippery slope to start saying this is legit, and this is not. im sure you do not have slaves, that you eat shellfish, probably don't keep kosher, you wear different fabrics, don't believe in dragons, talking snakes, living in a whale, or a boat containing every species of animal - but where is the line drawn?
if jesus rejected the old teachings, then why is there such a hatred for homosexuals in christianity? why the subjugation of women? hell, why is the old testament even in the modern christian bible in the first place?
And why do you place such an importance on the bible? There are other religious texts that have deep value to millions of other people. Are they all wrong?
at the end of the day, my atheism is not the result of not believing the bible is the holy, infallible word of god. it's from not experiencing any evidence of god and not seeing the need for a god in the beauty of the universe.
and i'm a touch existential too
Last Edit: Mar 11, 2009 11:28:23 GMT -5 by idio - Back to Top
Don't forget about David Blaine. I believe in Santa Claus and David Blaine also.
David Blaine is a hack. His Balducci levitation is for beginners. Now Copperfield, he flies, cuts himself in half, and even made the statue of liberty disappear. Lets see Jesus try that one.
I wonder if the decline stems more from apathy, or people decidedly choosing they do not believe in any religion for whatever their particular reason may be.
I believe the trend toward "not believing" has a lot to do with science. 2,000ish years ago when the Bible was being written (by white men), they didn't have the science and knowledge to explain a lot of things like we have today, so they thought, "Ah...must be a divine, all knowing being!" But now we have millions of pieces of evidence backing evolution, etc.
I was raised Baptist and was in church every Wed. and Sun. until I was about 17. When you grow up, and Jesus and God are all you know and are taught, you are forced to believe it and in a sense, forced to push reason aside. I am extremely logical and analytical, and the bottom line-the Bible (and all organized religious texts) is completely illogical and irrational. I do not wish to believe in a God who orders the killing of innocent people...who condemns people to hell for loving someone of the same sex...who demands you worship "him" or else, and most importantly, who ALLOWS his son to be nailed to a cross (in addition to "allowing" things ever day to happen such as poverty and famine). It's all just loony tunes. ...not to mention the "Gods" before Jesus who have the SAME EXACT story (coincidence?). I think organized religion breeds intolerance and hate (usually). I understand that religion can be good for people and forces them to the the "right" thing, and I support religious freedom. I, however, know and understand that I shouldn't kill or steal-I don't need a 2,000 yr old book to tell me that. And this whole "faith" thing is weird to me. I can think of NOTHING else where someone can explain and try to justify something something by "faith."
With all that said, I consider myself to be agnostic b/c I can't prove there is no God, and like many of you, I see such beautiful things in nature and in life that I often question it. Perhaps Mother Nature is God. Mother Nature is really the closest thing to a perfect creation I can think of. But I don't know and don't claim to. Just my $.02.
Oh, and Religulous was a really good documentary. I highly recommend it.
2012 Wishlist: Radiohead Phish Daft Punk Ghostland Observatory Broken Social Scene Roger Waters Bell X1 Bonobo Chemical Brothers Fiona Apple Built to Spill Modest Mouse
I used to completely question that God would allow such attrocities as war and famine - or even relatively mundane things as getting into a car accident. But the older I get, the more I realize that having bad things happen directly to you makes you appreciate the good. Having bad things happen in the world makes you realize that there is a world outside of your own little community and that individuals can make a difference.
Everything happens for a reason. Almost always you don't know what that reason is at the time. Sometimes you find out later on, sometimes you never do.
This is why I put myself in the "not religious but questioning" category.
Besides, if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn't be a human being. You'd be a game-show host.
2012 Wishlist: Radiohead Phish Daft Punk Ghostland Observatory Broken Social Scene Roger Waters Bell X1 Bonobo Chemical Brothers Fiona Apple Built to Spill Modest Mouse
I used to completely question that God would allow such attrocities as war and famine - or even relatively mundane things as getting into a car accident. But the older I get, the more I realize that having bad things happen directly to you makes you appreciate the good. Having bad things happen in the world makes you realize that there is a world outside of your own little community and that individuals can make a difference.
Everything happens for a reason. Almost always you don't know what that reason is at the time. Sometimes you find out later on, sometimes you never do.
This is why I put myself in the "not religious but questioning" category.
Besides, if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn't be a human being. You'd be a game-show host.
I agree with everything you said up there (with the exception that everything happens for a reason). But seeing and hearing about the atrocities that go on I feel really does make me a better person and more aware...and more appreciative, but honestly, I think it also persuades me NOT to believe in God (or a good one anyway). And I was the other person in the "not religious but questioning" category! Right on.
2012 Wishlist: Radiohead Phish Daft Punk Ghostland Observatory Broken Social Scene Roger Waters Bell X1 Bonobo Chemical Brothers Fiona Apple Built to Spill Modest Mouse
Oh, and Religulous was a really good documentary. I highly recommend it.
I wasn't a huge fan. Yes, I enjoyed it - as it presented many of my own views. But it's not likely to win any converts, so to speak.
No, no. Not at all!!! Bill is too "in your face" to win anyone over who is not already a fan. However, I think he is hilarious and very entertaining. I thought the documentary brought up a lot of good questions-questions I've asked for years. But it's good to see someone famous convey the same ideas to a large group of people...makes people think.
2012 Wishlist: Radiohead Phish Daft Punk Ghostland Observatory Broken Social Scene Roger Waters Bell X1 Bonobo Chemical Brothers Fiona Apple Built to Spill Modest Mouse