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Basically what Jess said. I've seen several of my friends go into the military and then come out as different people. My dad was in the army for 22 years. My mom said he was a completely different person when he got out. Anytime that you are broken down like that and then built back up, you're somewhat brainwashed. You think how they intended for you to think. In essence, they built you.
No, I mean specifically. How are we brainwashed? And to what end?
People change in the military, no doubt. Personalities are affected by experiences, and many experiences in the military can be very shocking and appalling.
But I'm not seeing how that correlates to brainwashing, that's what I'm asking you.
Well, agree to disagree. But don't dismiss it as brainwashing just because you don't understand it, I do take exception to that.
Excuse me man I did not dismiss anything you said, I just took exception to the fact that you think life forging bonds only happen if you are in the military. This is what I meant by a specious argument, and the attitude about it is what will bring those comments that is all I said.
My mistake, that wasn't you that said that. Been a long day.
Basically what Jess said. I've seen several of my friends go into the military and then come out as different people. My dad was in the army for 22 years. My mom said he was a completely different person when he got out. Anytime that you are broken down like that and then built back up, you're somewhat brainwashed. You think how they intended for you to think. In essence, they built you.
I disagree. I won't argue this anymore but people naturally change to adapt to their surroundings. I'm not brainwashed at all - and I take offense to someone saying I was or am.
Simple example- When you get a new job you're not familiar with you're trained to do it correctly and efficiently, right? Essentially you're being trained how to operate in a new atmosphere.
Is that considered brainwashing?? Because being trained in the armed forces is the SAME THING. The only difference is that in the Marine Corps, you're being trained for something much more intense and life altering. Hence the more noticeable change one undergoes.
Post by questionablesanity on Jul 16, 2010 7:27:41 GMT -5
I think you'd have to be brainwashed to be willing to kill someone. Sure not everyone in the military is put into that position. But it's highly likely during war time. Blindly following orders is brainwashing to me.
Equating a regular job to the Marines is ridiculous.
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It's easy for you to say that, you've never heard the rounds whizz past your head. No brainwashing necessary, survival instincts kick in at that point. Just because you can't wrap your head around why we do what we do doesn't mean we're brainwashed.
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I think you'd have to be brainwashed to be willing to kill someone. Sure not everyone in the military is put into that position. But it's highly likely during war time. Blindly following orders is brainwashing to me.
Equating a regular job to the Marines is ridiculous.
No you continuing to argue this is ridiculous. And to be clear I wasn't equating a regular job to the Marines, I was making an analogy about training. You're making ignorant assumptions.
I wasn't brainwashed to kill someone, I was trained how to defend myself in the case someone was trying to kill me. If someone was violently trying to kill you, would you defend your own life? Is that what you call being brainwashed?
I think you'd have to be brainwashed to be willing to kill someone. Sure not everyone in the military is put into that position. But it's highly likely during war time. Blindly following orders is brainwashing to me.
Equating a regular job to the Marines is ridiculous.
I disagree. Yes, I know there is some heavy persuasion and fact-stretching involved in recruiting, but I think it's completely erroneous to say that you'd have to be brainwashed to want to serve your country. I believe that there is such a thing as a sense of patriotic duty, of doing what you believe to be right even if it's not something you necessarily want to do. I also think there's a major difference between obeying your superiors and just blindly following orders. I mean, in just about any job, you're going to have to follow orders that you don't particularly want to follow, and do things that you don't necessarily want to do. But in order to function as a unit, there needs to be some order in the direction of the group. That doesn't mean that there's been any brainwashing. As badfish said, I think it's more the experiences that changes people, as opposed to any sort of indoctrination techniques. Granted, I speak from the viewpoint of someone who's never served - in fact, I'm technically ineligible to serve, even if I wanted to - so take it or leave it, but that's just my $.02
Post by hibouxdufromage on Jul 16, 2010 19:27:39 GMT -5
QS, it doesn't make you less of a man to admit that you don't know anything about something that you don't have any direct experience with. I know I wasn't brainwashed in the Marine Corps. I was aware of every little mindgame in basic when it was happening, my Drill Instructors were smart enough to know that I knew, but I played along because I'm the one who walked into the recruiting station, I'm the one who signed the contract, they didn't come pluck me out of my bed at night and stick me in a platoon. Higgi, badfish, and I can nitpick over the finer points of how combat affects relationships. I'm sure we have similar experiences with differing variables. Personally, I don't like to talk about mine with anyone who wasn't there. Nobody has claimed that it's the only path to forming close bonds, but the particular kind that we have with our buddies- there is no other path. This thread has become pretty useless though, civilians making ignorant statements and military folks making statements that we know the civilians don't have the experience to understand. How is this helping the OP make an informed decision?
Post by questionablesanity on Jul 19, 2010 7:15:33 GMT -5
I gave up on the OP long ago. No, I have never been in the military and never would. I do not believe in patriotic duty because I don't have any faith in our government. The experiences I do have with the Marines has been through friends who have joined and come back completely different people. They went in as hippie stoners due to a lack of options and came back as aggressive idiots. I can't even speak to them anymore because they are so rascist against people of middle eastern descent.
I don't see how killing people in the current wars that we are fighting is serving our country. What good is it doing for our country?
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Post by indigrainbow on Jul 20, 2010 2:49:26 GMT -5
it doesnt do any good to go farrah fawcett on an obscure internet forum in an obscure thread, either. i'd never join because i know i'd have a good chance of choking in a life or death situation that others would be counting on me for, adrenaline does nothing but tear me up and make me too nervous to do anything.
if the OP is still reading, one thing you will encounter if you sign up is people badmouthing you for your decision.
i've got friends and relatives in the military, and the ones i knew before they went in, i did notice a huge change, but i wouldnt call it brainwashing. seems to me like its more of a rite of passage for most. i dont know what goes on or what its like, but i do know that bonds forged during war have been revered throughout history for ages, far before this country was ever even thought of.
questionableinsanity, i dont see your friends as being an accurate representation of things, most of the people i know that have been through the military have their aggression strongly holstered and have been known to peacefully defuse violent situations without any apparent force. i feel you not wanting people to be killed, though, but i dont know that human nature is going to change anytime soon.
regardless of the govt's intent on things, thanks all who risked their lives for what they felt was the right thing to do
Last Edit: Jul 20, 2010 3:00:40 GMT -5 by indigrainbow - Back to Top
This thread has certainly changed from what the OP meant it to be, but I would like to get my thoughts in on the philosophical discussion that has ensued. Just for background I am a fairly liberal individual who thinks war should be avoided if possible, but it far too often cannot be avoided. I am not, nor have ever been in the military.
I personally believe that Brain-washing in the military all depends on the connotation of the word. I certainly do not think the military is hypnotizing its enlistees into becoming killing machines or for that matter more inclined to aggression than they were before they joined. I do believe that superiors in the military can have the same or similar influence over soldiers as professors can have over college students. In both of these examples the influence can be both positive and negative. Also the influence can both be realized or not by both the person influencing and the person being influenced.
It is interesting to consider the possibility that serving in the military can cause a person to become racists. I do believe this can happen. First of all I think that the majority of people who come out of the military as racists went in as racists. I can however think of two possible ways of how the military can breed racism. The first way is as a method of simplified classification. In the military it can occur that one must consider a person's associations to justify shooting and killing them. Shooting a person because they are a Al Qaeda, Vietcong, or Nazi is justified. I am no psychologist but I believe it would be possible for this to become a slippery slope and the association to simplify to the race of the majority of members of any of these groups. The other method is as an unintentional psychological defense mechanism. I think we can all agree that many who experience combat struggle on a regular basis with their actions during the fighting. I believe the brain may program its self to see one race as a lesser in order help the person deal with their actions. That is, a soldier in the Vietnam War may unintentionally become racists against Vietnamese in order to better cope with the fact that he killed a number of them.
I really hope I have offended no one with this post. I also hope that if I have made any incorrect statements or assumptions due to my ignorance of the military one of you who has experienced it will correct me.
Post by ziggyandthemonkeys on Jul 20, 2010 4:45:24 GMT -5
Let me preface this by saying I do not serve, nor have I ever served in the military.
I think the most important thing to consider is finding out about the military before you enlist, because as mentioned recruiters are just sales people trying to sell the military to you and WILL stretch the truth as far as possible. This is not the place to do that. If after you look you decide you still want to join be confident in your decision. Clearly a lot of people will argue with you over the merits of war and what you are doing, and the deeper you get into these events the more offensive their opinions will be. If you think you can handle all the adversity, go for it. I know plenty of people who have had their lives changed for the better by the military. There are plenty of non-combat positions available, and don't frequently hear of many people who actually enjoy seeing combat. It sounds all exciting when you're talking about it, but most people I have heard from come to realize it for what it is, terrifying.
And to say people are brainwashed because they come back different is stupid. A lot of people join up around the age of 18-20, possibly getting out 4 years later. Anyone changes a ton between the ages of 20-24. Maybe these hippie stoners were idiots before they went in, too. People make it seem like the military is some walking death squad, like its the movie The Terminator. Its easy to defend yourself without being brainwashed when you are being shot at, its impossible to say its not without ever being in that situation. Some people who hate the government still find it worth while to protect the people who live in this country. Without a military this country would end up being East Korea or something. It is a necessary evil, so the more intelligent people filling these positions the better.
Post by sittingcow on Jul 20, 2010 13:18:55 GMT -5
the military systematically alters their recruits' ideals and general way of thinking. you don't have to call that brainwashing if you don't like the sound of it, but well, that's what it is.
the military systematically alters their recruits' ideals and general way of thinking. you don't have to call that brainwashing if you don't like the sound of it, but well, that's what it is.
Yea, okay.. And your mom brainwashed you to put on clean underwear everyday too.
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^^ Talk about brainwashing... You just spread this nonsense with no valid ground to stand on. You've heard others SAY this yet have never experienced any of it. So by blindly supporting a cause you know nothing about, and being very adamant about it at that, I would say you're the only brainwashed person here.
Post by questionablesanity on Jul 20, 2010 16:02:26 GMT -5
I grew up in the military so I have seen it first hand. I've had friends or family in every branch. I've been around the military my entire life. No I have not been enlisted and never will be. So I do have first hand experience and valid ground to stand on.
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First hand experience is not listening to what other's have to say. It's experiencing things for yourself and forming an opinion - not basing your argument off hearsay.
QS - To me, first hand experience implies that you yourself saw active combat. What you described, I'd call second hand experience. You may not believe in a sense of patriotic duty, but that doesn't mean that others don't. Just because it's not in line with your beliefs, that doesn't mean that it's not a drive that exists within some people - many of whom are actually sane and rational individuals. As I said before, I'm not arguing with the fact that the military has been known to put a slant on the realities of war, but I am arguing with your statement that one would have to be 'brainwashed' in order to want to serve.
For his actions during WWII, my grandfather received the single greatest honor a soldier could ever possibly hope to receive, but I suppose he only received it because he was "brainwashed" and "blindly following orders"...
Last Edit: Jul 21, 2010 9:38:52 GMT -5 by indigrainbow - Back to Top
This thread has certainly changed from what the OP meant it to be, but I would like to get my thoughts in on the philosophical discussion that has ensued. Just for background I am a fairly liberal individual who thinks war should be avoided if possible, but it far too often cannot be avoided. I am not, nor have ever been in the military.
I personally believe that Brain-washing in the military all depends on the connotation of the word. I certainly do not think the military is hypnotizing its enlistees into becoming killing machines or for that matter more inclined to aggression than they were before they joined. I do believe that superiors in the military can have the same or similar influence over soldiers as professors can have over college students. In both of these examples the influence can be both positive and negative. Also the influence can both be realized or not by both the person influencing and the person being influenced.
It is interesting to consider the possibility that serving in the military can cause a person to become racists. I do believe this can happen. First of all I think that the majority of people who come out of the military as racists went in as racists. I can however think of two possible ways of how the military can breed racism. The first way is as a method of simplified classification. In the military it can occur that one must consider a person's associations to justify shooting and killing them. Shooting a person because they are a Al Qaeda, Vietcong, or Nazi is justified. I am no psychologist but I believe it would be possible for this to become a slippery slope and the association to simplify to the race of the majority of members of any of these groups. The other method is as an unintentional psychological defense mechanism. I think we can all agree that many who experience combat struggle on a regular basis with their actions during the fighting. I believe the brain may program its self to see one race as a lesser in order help the person deal with their actions. That is, a soldier in the Vietnam War may unintentionally become racists against Vietnamese in order to better cope with the fact that he killed a number of them.
I really hope I have offended no one with this post. I also hope that if I have made any incorrect statements or assumptions due to my ignorance of the military one of you who has experienced it will correct me.
No, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Post by questionablesanity on Jul 21, 2010 14:11:35 GMT -5
Yes, they want you to be mindless slaves who do not question authority. That's brainwashing to me. I realize that it doesn't work on everyone and hopefully not you guys, but I'm sure it works on the majority.
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Yes, they want you to be mindless slaves who do not question authority. That's brainwashing to me. I realize that it doesn't work on everyone and hopefully not you guys, but I'm sure it works on the majority.
So you don't know what it means.
It's amazing that people think the military wants mindless robots incapable of critical thinking and making snap decisions, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth. You obviously have no idea what the "break down and build up" process entails or what it's intended result is, and you damn sure don't have first hand experience with it.
So I've been thinking a lot lately of joining the military. The reasons I was to do this are many....I get bored and switch jobs a lot, I feel like I'm not experiencing enough of the world/ life and as it stands right now it looks to be the only way I'll have a good career. My only problem with it is the ethics. I don't believe in war. However my justification for joining is that we are involved on them anyway and there quacked up Leno happening and I figure the more level headed, non hating people involved the better!
So what are your thoughts on it? How do you feel about people in the army?
PS....Don't go on with the "omg you could die or get hurt" because the excitement is a big reason I'm interested
Hey, Kenneth, if you're still following I'd like you to seriously consider the argument that has taken over your thread. You will run into judgmental and ignorant people who will ridicule you for what you're doing. It's inevitable.
I wouldn't let it discourage you, because with the exception of that small aside, you'll be entering the greatest brotherhood/family you can imagine. But it is something to be aware of.
Yes, they want you to be mindless slaves who do not question authority. That's brainwashing to me. I realize that it doesn't work on everyone and hopefully not you guys, but I'm sure it works on the majority.
Why are you so sure? You are painting with very broad strokes, while talking with people who have actually served and experienced it.
Show some respect and quit talking out of your ass.
Last Edit: Jul 22, 2010 3:17:29 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
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Post by questionablesanity on Jul 23, 2010 10:57:39 GMT -5
Yes you are correct but the "hearsay" is coming from people who have been in for twenty years and they are my blood relatives. I'll take their word for it.
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