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....the state's Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli II.
It was not a happy day for me when those two were elected. On the bright side, DC has legalized gay marriage, and is considering permitting the use of medical corn.
Preparing children for real life, either college or the work force, has not been the #1 priority of public schools for a long time. As a country we are falling father and father behind the rest of the world. It's sad, really.
The school absolutely did cancel the prom because this couple is gay. Hopefully you just didn't read the articles about this, dudezer, because it's sickening to think someone here would be knowingly covering for this bigotry.
Totally disagree dude. Look. I'm speaking from the experience of having grown up the kid of a school administrator.
Kids and parents of kids all think their crusade is worth burning the village down over, and it's usually not. I guarantee she could have gone about this in a less dramatic fashion and produced the same results. But she's a high schooler, and probably too naive to realize what bringing in the ACLU is going to do her community and her relationship with her classmates. Instead of rallying people to her cause and building consensus, she's gotten prom canceled and alienated herself further from her classmates. And she's a media darling now too. So yeah...don't cry for me Argentina.
I find this statement pretty disturbing. Clearly the "crusade" was deemed some what relevant, beyond just a student's and parents, when the ACLU GOT INVOLVED. To my knowledge this is not an organization that fights the battle of every high schooler who think they were wronged, but apparently you know better than all of us.
I highly doubt it had more to do with wearing tuxedo and less to do with her being a lesbian. It is pretty clear that this is a matter of her being discriminated against for wanting to bring another young woman to prom. You cancel proms and the ACLU gets involved because some girl wants to wear a tux? I don't think so. It appears you would be one of the kids attacking her because of this. She didn't get prom canceled, the ignorant school district did. To blame her is absolutely ridiculous. I don't care how much experience you think you are bringing to this matter, but I consider it pretty clear, and you are frankly looking like an ass.
And Meg, I know it is not a schools responsibility to put on dances and i understand that they have stopped them before. The problem here is that they are stopping this prom because of only one person. I think dress codes are stupid, but whatever, I can live with them. They have been around and apply to everyone. Not being able to bring the date you want only applies to a certain group. Cancel prom over a broad problem like you think there will be violence, but don't cancel prom because one lesbian wants to go with her girlfriend.
Here is an interesting thing I found out from my teenager tonight.
If she wants to go to the Prom - with her best friend - she can BUT
They cannot but a "couples" ticket at the discounted price of $35 for the pair of tickets - instead they each have to buy an individual ticket for $25 a piece
So her school won't ban girls from going together - or guys for that matter - but they get monetarily penalized for it.
You know it is always funny to people who first meet me that I am one of the biggest defenders of LGBT rights out there. Two of the best friends I have ever had in the world, one male, one female happen to be gay. I am just not tolerant of discrimination in any way shape or form, including sexuality. The only person who has an interest in who you are sleeping with is you and one, or possibly two other people. The fact of the matter is that people just have to get the quack over it. People are what they are, and to make them hide it because it makes someone else uncomfortable is ridiculous. I hope like hell some private individual throws these guys one hell of a prom, behaving this way in today's world is just beyond belief to me.
Post by Fishing Maniac on Mar 12, 2010 0:52:07 GMT -5
It's interesting. There is a thread about this on my fishing board and it's entitled "Lesbian trashes school prom for her classmates. " It's a pretty interesting thread. It made 10 pages in six hours. I'm not about to go back and read all of it, but there are some interesting points coming from all sides. A lot more being discussed there. There's a far greater variety of opinions on that board than there is here.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 12, 2010 1:33:10 GMT -5
I think I just read that thread, fish, if I'm looking at the right fishing forum. I don't really see the variety of opinions you're talking about.
There are more people saying the school was right to discriminate against her than there are here, but they all have the same opinion, just different justifications for that discrimination. There are also a number of people calling them on that opinion. Fortunately nobody over here is talking about goats, horses, and dogs, as if that's really a good reason for the school's behavior.
I see some people talking about cross dressing, but the tux came up here too, and it's been pointed out that that's not really the issue here (somebody pointed that out there too, it just took a little longer). There are also a few people talking about sex ed in school and other issues unrelated to this case, but those aren't opinions about this issue.
What are all these other opinions about this issue you're seeing over there?
Post by Fishing Maniac on Mar 12, 2010 1:44:04 GMT -5
In that thread you yourself said people put forth different justifications for their view. Those would be opinions by my definition. That is if you read the same thread.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 12, 2010 1:50:05 GMT -5
It's in the town tavern section of the board if we're looking at the same one. I see what you're saying, now; I didn't count different ways of justifying bigotry as different opinions, since they all come down to the same thing. Just wondering where you were coming from in that post.
Post by Fishing Maniac on Mar 12, 2010 2:06:31 GMT -5
Yeah that's the thread. I see different opinions coming from both sides though. There are different justifications coming from those who think that the school is completely wrong as well as those who do not support the girl. When different people use different logic to reach a similar conclusion I consider it a different opinion. After all why you think something is at least as important as what you think. At least that's my opinion, but this is just becoming a game of semantics.
mainly I just found the diametrically opposed thread titles amusing.
Yeah, it's just fine to be gay, as long as you stay in the closet.
You don't see anything wrong with that?
I'm a bit more pragmatic. I also think you're making large assumptions like she's a closeted lesbian or that the school administrators were bigots and unsympathetic. Policy is policy, and it's hard to unilaterally overturn it, even if you want to.
I also think there are smart ways to enact change and smurfing retarded ways to enact it, and this falls in the latter category. I also would also venture to suggest that given this story has gone national because of the ACLU, the side you're getting of the story is pretty one sided.
How is it a retarded way force change by demanding equal treatment? This is why black people no longer have to use a separate water fountain.
Meg I agree with your point that they are not obligated to hold a prom. However they are also not allowed to cancel it in retaliation either, and that is what makes it a big deal to me. Basically they are purposefully making her a pariah, because she dared to challenge her treatment under their values system. That is where her civil rights are being violated, and I think it is the kind of situation the ACLU was made for.
It's no small thing to sue your school district. I tried my senior year, and it was a massive fail.
My issue was less politically divisive and (I feel) the district's actions were more expressly prohibited by law. What had happened was, shortly after Columbine, with a little more than one month's notice, my school board decided to relocate our graduation ceremonies from the traditional riverside park downtown into our high school gym.
My high school was, at the time, only in its second year of use and was the first new one built in WI for 20-25 years. The district had fought for years to win referenda to get it built, drew the envy of other district administrators from around the state, and were looking for any chance to show it off.
What I was challenging was not the divisive decision itself, but the means with which they'd arrived at their decision. I discovered that open meetings laws required the school board to announce agenda items in advance... which they had neglected to do in regards to anything involving graduation ceremonies.
I wanted to call bullhonkey brah and take them to court. I didn't even necessarily want the decision reversed - I just wanted my school board to simply remake their divisive decision in the open and transparent process in which it should have been done in the first place.
Shortly after the assembly announcing the relocation, I managed to get an appointment with my Mock Trial coach - a local attorney. He told me I had a decent case, which he could not take due to conflict of interest... seeing as he had other business representing my school district. After that, every lawyer around I attempted to discuss the issue with wouldn't help me - they had all "previously consulted on the matter" with my school district in the course of those few days. My bastid mock trial coach knew his client was in the wrong and STILL threw me under the fucking bus. Could have pursued it further, but we wound up holding an alternate ceremony at the park before the gym graduation instead.
For this girl to take this issue this far should be a victory in and of itself. The future needs more girls (and boys) like her.
Meg I agree with your point that they are not obligated to hold a prom. However they are also not allowed to cancel it in retaliation either, and that is what makes it a big deal to me.
I don't think that they canceled the prom out of retaliation. I think they did it out of fear or risk assessment. I think they surmised that changing the rules and letting the girl attend as she wanted to would have put them in a tough spot with the local community and not doing so would have perpetuated the difficulty with the ACLU. As a result they probably decided that to turn tail and run from the in entire thing would be their safest option. I'm not condoning it by any means. I just think it was more CYA than eff U.
I'm curious, and this may be in one of the articles. I only read the one in my fishing board which may be different from those posted here. Why was the school aware of her plans in the first place? Do you have to tell the school who you are taking to the prom? I never attended one so I don't know. It seems to me that she MIGHT (and I stress might because I am not making an accusation) have been trying to stir up some trouble in the first place. I think it would have had a more influential impact for her to keep her plans quiet and then show up as she wished (if this were possible) and as a result draw attention to the situation without risking the event's cancellation for all. I'm sure she did not think that her fellow students would miss out on the prom as a result though.
As far as the ACLU I consider them a reverse discrimination organization. When I was beaten unconscious by the NYPD they never even returned my calls. White kid + white cop = no news coverage. They help out minorities/"persecuted peoples" in NY who go through far less than I did. My opinion is based on one experience, but it was my experience. They wanted nothing to do with me. I guess I don't have the right to wait for a train and not be assaulted. Where are my equal rights?
Why was the school aware of her plans in the first place?
From what I read, she had asked permission before the guidelines regarding date gender and attire were published this year. Additionally, in the past years they had put the same rules in place.
I'm curious, and this may be in one of the articles. I only read the one in my fishing board which may be different from those posted here. Why was the school aware of her plans in the first place? Do you have to tell the school who you are taking to the prom?
Yes, at this prom, students did have to tell the school who they were taking to the prom. Here's a PDF of the flyer sent to students with the rules and fees for bringing dates: www.aclu.org/files/assets/Itawamba_HS_prom_flyer_0.pdf. Notice that one of the requirements is that a student's date "must be of the opposite sex."
That's why she asked. She was not only told she couldn't bring her girlfriend, but was "also warned that they would be thrown out even if they came separately but tried to slow dance with each other or even if their presence made other students 'uncomfortable.'" So she decided to fight. www.aclu.org/blog/lgbt-rights/mississippi-high-school-insists-straights-only-prom
I can tell you - from my experience - because I have a teenager who attended prom last year and will go again this year - at her school at least - you have to tell who you are attending with.
IF you buy a "couples" ticket - they right the names on each ticket and you present your ticket at the door with your id - if the name ion the tickets fails to match the id - you cannot enter. tickets are non-transferable.
If you buy a single ticket - same thing - name on the ticket and show id at the door.
NTRT - don't forget the fact that she also wants to wear a tux instead of a gown which apparently is against the rules that were given to the students also
She was not only told she couldn't bring her girlfriend, but was "also warned that they would be thrown out even if they came separately but tried to slow dance with each other or even if their presence made other students 'uncomfortable.'"
Yes, the school was only thinking about the safety of the students. In situations like this there is a very real danger of a "Carrie" scenario. Everyone knows lesbians have tremendous telekinetic powers. If teased, the couple could unleash their powers at double the dose, killing not only prom attendants, but possibly the entire student body and faculty. I think the school acted prudently in avoiding potential mass slaughter.
Last Edit: Mar 12, 2010 22:17:02 GMT -5 by RBRR - Back to Top
She was not only told she couldn't bring her girlfriend, but was "also warned that they would be thrown out even if they came separately but tried to slow dance with each other or even if their presence made other students 'uncomfortable.'"
Well that's just ridiculous. Girls always dance with each other.
Meg I agree with your point that they are not obligated to hold a prom. However they are also not allowed to cancel it in retaliation either, and that is what makes it a big deal to me.
I don't think that they canceled the prom out of retaliation. I think they did it out of fear or risk assessment. I think they surmised that changing the rules and letting the girl attend as she wanted to would have put them in a tough spot with the local community and not doing so would have perpetuated the difficulty with the ACLU. As a result they probably decided that to turn tail and run from the in entire thing would be their safest option. I'm not condoning it by any means. I just think it was more CYA than eff U.
I'm curious, and this may be in one of the articles. I only read the one in my fishing board which may be different from those posted here. Why was the school aware of her plans in the first place? Do you have to tell the school who you are taking to the prom? I never attended one so I don't know. It seems to me that she MIGHT (and I stress might because I am not making an accusation) have been trying to stir up some trouble in the first place. I think it would have had a more influential impact for her to keep her plans quiet and then show up as she wished (if this were possible) and as a result draw attention to the situation without risking the event's cancellation for all. I'm sure she did not think that her fellow students would miss out on the prom as a result though.
As far as the ACLU I consider them a reverse discrimination organization. When I was beaten unconscious by the NYPD they never even returned my calls. White kid + white cop = no news coverage. They help out minorities/"persecuted peoples" in NY who go through far less than I did. My opinion is based on one experience, but it was my experience. They wanted nothing to do with me. I guess I don't have the right to wait for a train and not be assaulted. Where are my equal rights?
^Off topic, but somewhat germane.
So firstly I have to say yes it is a eff you, this is precisely the tactic used by southern schools getting integrated proms when I was growing up in the early 90's. You cancel it, then blame the person who wanted to bring a date you find unpleasant be it interracial or homosexual. It is amazing how few students will challenge anything once you turn one or two into a pariah. Afterwords it was not really your fault it was just that crazy student who forced your hand. It is complete BS, and this student has a first amendment right to express herself no matter how uncomfortable it makes other people.
Secondly, that sucks the ACLU would not help you after that, but a failing in one area does not mean that they can not do something right in another. I mainly work for lawyers, and I can get spoiled by the amount of access to quality legal help that I have, and I know it can be a pain in the butt if you do not have a "in" with some law dogs.
Last Edit: Mar 13, 2010 1:49:01 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Post by Fishing Maniac on Mar 13, 2010 2:25:12 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't have any insight into what high schools in the south do in these situations. I'm just calling it based on what I do know. The ACLU has their agenda which doesn't include everyone.
Well, I wouldn't have any insight into what high schools in the south do in these situations. I'm just calling it based on what I do know. The ACLU has their agenda which doesn't include everyone.
What exactly are you "calling" fish? I don't see how your situation has any bearing on this issue. So the ACLU didn't call you back; what exactly does that have to do with this?
^Eh he has a point, and that is that the ACLU is much more likely to help someone when they get publicity for it. That being said it is a private organization, with a limited budget they have to get the most mileage out of.
^I certainly brought them into the discussion, so it is not a hijack. Also the ACLU is now suing the school to make them have the prom just to make this all more interesting..
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 13, 2010 3:43:17 GMT -5
But ok, let's just go ahead and talk about the ACLU now that we're already doing it.
It sucks you got beat up by the cops, fish. And it sucks that the ACLU didn't want to take on your case. Have they refused to represent other white males before? I'm asking because I don't know. Do they have any history of representing white males, or of refusing to represent white males?