Whether it's your first Bonnaroo or you’re a music festival veteran, we welcome you to Inforoo.
Here you'll find info about artists, rumors, camping tips, and the infamous Roo Clues. Have a look around then create an account and join in the fun. See you at Bonnaroo!!
And I am MOST offended with your dismissal of Troo. If ANYONE around here takes a well supported approach to what he gives, it is most certainly he. Your accusations of him participating as anything but a heroic american who takes accountability for his own beliefs and supports them with footnoted, linked citations, is ludicrous.
And it also weakens your argument against the rest of us, as you have been so off the mark about him.
But I am thankful that you DO take the time to ask yourself if any of what I have said has been true, as evidenced in your last post.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Sept 2, 2009 11:18:12 GMT -5
So there's a consensus in this thread that some type of health care reform is necessary.
For those of you who don't want the government involved in this reform, can you tell me how you think reform is going to happen otherwise? Are we supposed to wait for the insurance companies to have a change of heart and reform themselves? This is a serious question: if the government doesn't enact the reform, where will it come from?
Maybe I've misunderstood your positions. If so, please clarify.
So there's a consensus in this thread that some type of health care reform is necessary.
For those of you who don't want the government involved in this reform, can you tell me how you think reform is going to happen otherwise? Are we supposed to wait for the insurance companies to have a change of heart and reform themselves? This is a serious question: if the government doesn't enact the reform, where will it come from?
Maybe I've misunderstood your positions. If so, please clarify.
That's what I wanted to know from fishing maniac.
I understand there are people who don't want the government involved in health care reform............but what is the alternative? I would like to hear a different plan. What could the people do to change things in a positive way? What are our other options (besides "do nothing")?
I don't think the insurance companies will ever reform on their own. There is TOO much money involved. We all like a little money. They have LOTS of money to like. Also, the health-care industry as a whole has turned into a many-headed, greedy beast. I don't think you can place the blame for our current mess on one person/group/organizations head. I voted for Obama, and I probably would again, but I don't consider myself a sheep. I think he is moving way too fast on this for the size of the shit-heep that must be overcome. Personally, I would have created a bipartisan task force to examine the issue, and then maybe a year or so later present ideas to Congress. This issue is way to complex to be defeated in, what, SIX months? I don't think any plan that comes out of this will work in the long run. And as I always say: FishingManiac, god bless ya, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
Man this thread got hostile quickly. Just a couple points
1 - Thanks Red for the kind words
2 - Maniac, I can see how you took my retort as angry and venomous, I really didn't mean it that way. It was early morning, before my 1st cup of coffee and the 1st thing I see is an angry tirade. I've seen many of these lately and just responded instantaneously with what was meant as surprise and light humor. Sorry if it was taken otherwise.
If you take offense to the use of the term tirade I would ask you to look over your own post. The use of words like, "vomit; dumb ass leftist; leftist brainwashing nonsense; blind, sheepish, sickening, self induced stupidity; " among others demonstrates a barely controlled anger and is anything but conducive to rational discussion. As such I responded with humor, though admittedly groggy, early-morning humor.
I would gladly discuss the specifics of healthcare but would ask you read the previous pages so as not to repeat arguments endlessly. If you are just here to vent, then vent away my brother.
Last Edit: Sept 2, 2009 19:30:45 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
So, will Obama's speech next week make any difference?
I tend to think No. Lines were drawn in the sand awhile ago, maybe during the Clinton era, and no one seems willing to cross them, even if it is for the betterment of the people the politicians supposedly serve.
Post by questionablesanity on Sept 3, 2009 12:46:09 GMT -5
Anybody read Matt Taibbi's article on this topic in Rolling Stone this month. He's lays it all out on why the current proposed reforms will not work. I learned a lot from this article. Like the fact that there are actually 4 and soon to be 5 proposed bills coming from the Senate and House. The most important (senate finance) bill has yet to be finished. The article also states how much money some of these politicians have received from healthcare....Holy Shit Batman....we're not going to get healthcare reform at all. Too many deals have already been made.
A Thieve's Parade 2/24 Conspirator 2/26 Kevin Smith 3/11 Keller 3/17 Papadosio 3/18 JJ Grey 3/25 Bela Fleck/Edgar Meyer 3/26 Toubab Krewe 3/27 O'Death 4/11 Budos Band 4/22 EOTO 4/28 Summer Camp 5/6-29 All Good
that article was an eye opener - not that the congress is bought and paid for, but how screwed up the healthcare bill is getting.
at this point, i see the need for reform, but would throw out the 1500 page reform document and start over. it's a moral issue and a national disgrace everyone does not have access to normal healthcare.
sadly, too few with any real power and influence would agree that healthcare should not be a huge money making venture.
at this point, i see the need for reform, but would throw out the 1500 page reform document and start over. it's a moral issue and a national disgrace everyone does not have access to normal healthcare.
I think that's an option they are thinking about. I read something on CNN recently about how they want to re-evaluate the whole thing and try to make it better so that both sides can come to some sort of agreement. Here's hoping!
The problem getting anything passed is that Republicans see this as a purely political issue right now (and have said so blatantly if you listen to anything other than media coverage.) They see a failed healthcare bill as their chance to embarrass the Dems and win back the house in 2010. They won't pass anything. And by fighting all healthcare bills with anger and lies they all but doom any reform for the foreseeable future.
I truly believe delaying passage of a bill soon is the same as killing any bill. Bigjohn is right. The lines have been drawn. The Dems must grow balls and force through what is needed.
The problem getting anything passed is that Republicans see this as a purely political issue right now (and have said so blatantly if you listen to anything other than media coverage.) They see a failed healthcare bill as their chance to embarrass the Dems and win back the house in 2010. They won't pass anything. And by fighting all healthcare bills with anger and lies they all but doom any reform for the foreseeable future.
I truly believe delaying passage of a bill soon is the same as killing any bill. Bigjohn is right. The lines have been drawn. The Dems must grow balls and force through what is needed.
But Troo - I am a Republican and I don't see it that way at all - I think we should all be working together towards a common goal and what I see is the Dems refusing to listen or believe that anything could be wrong with their precious proposed bill.
What I see is the Dems rushing to support their President but they are doing it blindly without taking the time to stop and realize that if they push through a bill in a hurry - there are going to be serious repercussions to this country.
Like BigJohn said - "I think he is moving way too fast on this for the size of the shit-heep that must be overcome. Personally, I would have created a bipartisan task force to examine the issue, and then maybe a year or so later present ideas to Congress. This issue is way to complex to be defeated in, what, SIX months? I don't think any plan that comes out of this will work in the long run."
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement
Something needs to be done but rushing through it is not going to create a solution - it is just going to add to the problems we already have.
^^ You are not a elected official or Party strategist. Generally thats who I mean when I say "they" in regards to passing or blocking legislation (as we, the little people, have only a very limited part in the actual procedures of lawmaking)
The Republican Party and its spokesmen have stated openly and often that a failed healthcare bill would make it seem that Democrats are unable to govern and open the door to a Republican victory in 2010.
As far as what Bigjohn said, I agreed with only the immediate previous post (regarding Obama's upcoming speech and its effect) and not everything he has previously posted.
I stand by my opinion that it is now or never for reform and I think 60 years of history backs me up.
Last Edit: Sept 3, 2009 15:53:17 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
I agree troo, it has to be done now or not at all. If the republicans were serious about wanting to help why have they done nothing but stir up people using lies? You say Dems are rushing to help the president meg? Well from my point of view the republicans are blindly rushing to stop the president, by any means necessary and without counting the cost. The biggest tragedy is that by their actions we are not getting a compromise bill like I would like the Dems will have to do it alone, or not do it. The real problem is that republicans realize they are doomed to 8 years of obscurity if ANY kind of decent healthcare reform bill passes, they do not even hide the fact that they do not want reform, and that they are trying their best to make this initiative fail.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Sept 3, 2009 16:14:41 GMT -5
I don't think health care reform is moving too fast in any way. It's not like people just got the idea that this is a problem. In many ways, this is a continuation of a national political conversation that started in the early-mid 90s.
Obama's plan was drawn up three years ago, and it was a central part of his successful Presidential campaign for 2 years. It would only make sense to say that Dems are rushing to support the President's plan if his plan were truly represented by one of the proposed bills. But Obama's plan isn't one of the bills, so it doesn't make any sense to say this is about him.
Again, this discussion is 15-20 years old. Just because Reps decided to ignore the issue when they were in power doesn't mean the issue is new.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Sept 3, 2009 16:35:25 GMT -5
To provide an example of what troo and jess are talking about, on of the major Republican players in the reform debate, Chuck Grassley (ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee) has said that he will vote no on any bill that comes through, even if Dems give him every single concession he's asking for, unless the bill has wide Republican support.
So one of the most important Reps in this debate has said that he will support his party instead of a good piece of legislation. The Reps have made it publicly known that there will be no bipartisan health care legislation.
I agree troo, it has to be done now or not at all. If the republicans were serious about wanting to help why have they done nothing but stir up people using lies? You say Dems are rushing to help the president meg? Well from my point of view the republicans are blindly rushing to stop the president, by any means necessary and without counting the cost. The biggest tragedy is that by their actions we are not getting a compromise bill like I would like the Dems will have to do it alone, or not do it. The real problem is that republicans realize they are doomed to 8 years of obscurity if ANY kind of decent healthcare reform bill passes, they do not even hide the fact that they do not want reform, and that they are trying their best to make this initiative fail.
One thing we all agree on is the need for health care reform - we just don't agree on when and how.
I know I will always be the in the minority of here when it comes to politics. I do support our President - even if I did not vote for him - after all - he is the President.
I don't think this bill has been well thought out - I think it takes longer then 6 months to try to do something like this. i think that by rushing the whole thing - there are going to be factors that will be thought of later that should have been included.
That being said - I'm not real happy with Obama at the moment when it comes to my Cost Of Living Adjustment tho - but that is a whole different topic...
I don't think this bill has been well thought out - I think it takes longer then 6 months to try to do something like this. i think that by rushing the whole thing - there are going to be factors that will be thought of later that should have been included.
i think this is how most things work. you can talk about stipulations and concessions til you're blue in the face, but you will never know the design flaws until you actually implement it.
as for the time-frame, this has been long in the making. they didn't just come up with this problem, or it's solution, in the past 6 months.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Sept 3, 2009 17:31:37 GMT -5
The last time we had a national discussion of health care reform, Republicans also said that things were "moving too fast." Ostensibly, they just wanted more time for debate, but what they really wanted was to stall and then end the debate. In 1994, they were successful, and the debate was killed.
So it's no surprise we're hearing once again that we're "moving too fast" on reform. It's a tactic that successfully killed the debate last time, so why not try it again.
If the Reps really wanted more time to debate the issues, why didn't they address the issue at all when they were in power? A lot of time has passed since 1993; if Reps (again, we're talking about elected officials, not people who vote Rep) were interested in health care reform they would have had a really thorough discussion of it by now.
One thing we all agree on is the need for health care reform - we just don't agree on when and how.
I know I will always be the in the minority of here when it comes to politics. I do support our President - even if I did not vote for him - after all - he is the President.
I have to disagree here the general republican theory right now is to have no bill at all, not a compromise, or anything else. If there is a reason for that other than putting politics in front of national interests I would love to know what it is.
I also believe that it's a Now or Never type situation for Health Care Reform. Slowing down the debate is tantamount to killing it. The opposition will do anything and everything they can to stop this piece of legislation as evidenced by the claims of rationed care, death panels, government takeover, etc. No reform is a win in their book. They want this to be Obama's "Waterloo."
Aside from the point of Health Care, it seems to me that it is much easier to galvanize support AGAINST something than it is to get people to be FOR something. Hate is a very strong emotion.
1. I agree that something should be done as soon as possible. However, 2. It appears there are way too many cooks in the kitchen. Everyone is backing "their bill" because it's the best one. Hopefully, all these bills get synthesized into one "really good" bill. and 3. I agree the (elected) Reps are using this as a weapon to make Obama a "failure" in their eyes and then hopefully in the public's eyes, which is just plain WRONG BUT 4. There are certain Dems who are just as partisan as certain Reps, and their inability to budge/negotiate/whatever is making this process even harder than it should be.
I would add to #4 that the reason for this is the strength of the Pharma Lobby, AMA, Health Insurance lobby, etc,. They have deep pockets and are willing to spend whatever it takes to see to it that NO change takes place by any means necessary: Talking points planted in the corporate owned media, propped up maniacs having soulless tea parties, suggestions by the talking heads that "now is not the time" or "this is all being forced through so quickly", ad infinitem.
I assert that a good deal of democrats will be paid(or are being paid well) to keep efforts half-assed at best and that they benefit publicly for having "tried" and lost.
Always follow the money. It is a pseudo-populist angle to insert mistrust of the government as a reason to derail any of the proposed single payer options currently offered.
Yeah, but is our highway system too "socialistic" for any one of these naysayers ? The military ? The police ? Our libraries ? Social Security ?
I still haven't seen any of the healthcare reform detractors answer NiteTime's question about how we get reform without some kind of governmental "intrusion" or "regulation". We're counting on the politicians with their hands in the cookie jar to effect change.
What is their incentive to change if we will always replace them with one of their own for the sake of "electability" ?
Last Edit: Sept 4, 2009 13:38:10 GMT -5 by red - Back to Top
Post by SouthGA_Festival Machine on Sept 4, 2009 13:21:56 GMT -5
The Five Biggest Lies in the Health Care Debate
You'll have no choice in what health benefits you receive. No chemo for older Medicare patients. Illegal immigrants will get free health insurance. Death panels will decide who lives. The government will set doctors' wages.
First and foremost - I'm glad folks are keeping it semi-cool in here. I hate to be to the guy who just rolls in at this point, but it's too great of an issue not to go butting my sh*t into!
Do you have a few minutes of your life to spare? Are you looking for a US Senator speaking to folks, quite apparently, of a different political persuasion, in a totally civil manner? Well - here ya go...
(Wonkette)
Refreshing, if nothing else, right?!
As someone who sells/deals with health insurance on a daily basis, I'd like to think I have a fairly good perspective on this one. To put it lightly - it's fuc*ed. You haven't 'worked' until you've told someone, who obviously needs it, they flat out can't have any health insurance. Yes, it's as simple as that, and way more common than your good night's sleep would like to accept.
If you're going to argue against our collective well being, please do so with a smile on your face. Smile and tell us how it doesn't work. Smile BIG! Just be willing to smile when those that matter are looking back at ya.
I have been lurking this thread since it began, but I've refrained from commenting since I tend to get bogged down in these discussions. But many good points have been made.
I just wanted to call attention to this excellent summary of the health care reform plans being considered, from today's Washington Post. It basically covers some of the key features of what health reform, as considered in the Senate's HELP committee bill and the House bill, will involve.
It's worth noting that details of the Senate Finance Committee bill should be released relatively soon, and the HELP committee bill doesn't make much sense without it, since the HELP committee can't really legislate anything about financing the bill. But once that is released, we should have a pretty good idea of what reform, if it's passed, will look like.
It's great to have discussions about healthcare reform, but it's just an academic exercise if we're not debating (and evaluating our elected representatives based on supporting or opposing) the actual provisions, and short and long term effects, of the actual bills.
I thought Obama gave a great speech, attempting to dispel fears and renew hope in the possibility of a good future. He laid out the truths of HR3200 and what we need to pass.
The Republican response seemed to ignore everything Obama said and repeat the same tired myths of government controlled care and instilling fear for Medicare recipients. Sad.