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let me "rephrase" then. it will not have consequences in the sense terrorists will be more likely to attack because of the change of words. what i meant was it will make people here at home more complacent.
i guess we will never agree. i just thought it might bring up some interesting discussion, but you and i are obviously the only ones discussing it. i will drop it so you can get back to your paper!!
Over 1/3 bankruptcies in America are do to medical bills-This is a national crisis and many start up companies fail because providing insurance to their employees can be expensive.
I actually listened to a news program the other night on CNN, and they stated that roughly half of bankrupcies filed each year are due to medical bills. And what is even worse is that a majority of those people had some type of insurance. I think that is a sad, sad state of affairs. I have BC/BS, and every time I go to the dentist they're asking me why BC/BS never paid them for the last visit, so then I have to go calling them. It's sooo aggravating!!!! And I know mental health agencies like dealing with medicaid (as opposed to private companies) b/c they always get paid, and they get paid even more for case managing people on medicaid as well...so they love it and are always advocatng for people to be "case managed" (b/c that = more money from Medicaid). Everyone should watch Sicko. Hope it angers you as much as it did me.
ah oh, ye molly knows the CM secret. I did my professional growing up in community mental health. YOu are right on the nose. Must be an insider...
^^^but i really dont believe that it is a pet-peeve. it lessens the meaning of the acts. basically, it's a way of helping people forget about bush (which many of you would like, and me to an extent). it helps people forget that there really are extremists out there, that intend to do us harm. the taliban released a statement just yesterday, or today, where they stated they will attack washington soon (i guess biden had it right when he said that obama would be tested soon into his presidency).
maybe it is something trivial to bring up, but it will have consequences
with regards to the "weapons of mass destruction" phrase being changed, what was it changed to? i believe that due to the fact that no wmds were found, they just dropped the whole phrase all together. it wasnt that they changed it to something else. that is what i am talking about--sugar-coating something so you can please the world. that never happened with wmds
The meaning of the word was cheapened when it was used in the last 8 years to muster fear up in people to pass policies to take away civil rights and set up torture on US Property.
^^^funny you should mention that, because i just heard today that the security level color was something (it was during commercials so i didnt really pay attention to the color)
as for the torturing aspect, i guess you would have preferred for the "enemy combatants" in england to fly across the atlantic and blow up the plane they were on, once they were on american soil. i dont understand why people think that when things like wire-tapping were passed that it was infringing on their civil rights. the govt was tapping, and watching, people that they deemed were a threat. it wasnt every single conversation, or every single person they were following. granted, there were mistakes. one that comes to mind is a tiny child that was put on that watch list. however, it WAS NOT every single person that was being monitored. kind of like the way people are saying on here "i wouldnt mind paying higher taxes if it helps someone other people in need", well i wouldnt mind having some people watched, or listened on, if it will prevent another tragedy.
^^^funny you should mention that, because i just heard today that the security level color was something (it was during commercials so i didnt really pay attention to the color)
as for the torturing aspect, i guess you would have preferred for the "enemy combatants" in england to fly across the atlantic and blow up the plane they were on, once they were on american soil. i dont understand why people think that when things like wire-tapping were passed that it was infringing on their civil rights. the govt was tapping, and watching, people that they deemed were a threat. it wasnt every single conversation, or every single person they were following. granted, there were mistakes. one that comes to mind is a tiny child that was put on that watch list. however, it WAS NOT every single person that was being monitored. kind of like the way people are saying on here "i wouldnt mind paying higher taxes if it helps someone other people in need", well i wouldnt mind having some people watched, or listened on, if it will prevent another tragedy.
Wire taps are one thing... I don't necessarily support it, but as you said I would rather run a risk of being tapped in to if it's for a legitimate reason... the only problem is we have no idea if we're being listened into or not, regardless of whether we should be... as you said, mistakes can and did happen. It was a case of good intentions going awry I guess... I dunno.
But as far as torture goes... there was never, is never, and will NEVER be a legitimate reason to torture somebody. Hold them in a jail cell with a rifle aimed at their head 24/7 for all I care, but physically torturing another human being just for being on the opposing forces after capturing them is just inhumane, and is a complete insult to mankind in my opinion.
I find it hard to believe there are people that are supporters of torture. Threaten all you want to receive information. Hell, give 'em a slap or two in the face if you think they're withholding something that vital... but when it comes to physical pain and suffering, absolutely not!
What makes you think that if you don't torture a prisoner they will somehow escape captivity and hop on a plane and blow up a building over here?? Or did I just completely misunderstand those first few sentences, jigawig?
i think i used the wrong word, or maybe it just came out wrong. i dont support cutting off ears, shooting a gun, etc at someone to get info (though sometimes it will work, justified or not--just look at the way cartels/mafia get info). however, putting someone in solitary confinement, waterboarding, playing music unbearably loud, etc to get info is fine by me--if it gets information
Waterboarding? Really? Are you not aware that it's in violation of the Geneva Convention? And that it's a war crime? Do you advocate that foreign armies be able to use this torture tactic on our soldiers when we are deemed the enemy?
i think i used the wrong word, or maybe it just came out wrong. i dont support cutting off ears, shooting a gun, etc at someone to get info (though sometimes it will work, justified or not--just look at the way cartels/mafia get info). however, putting someone in solitary confinement, waterboarding, playing music unbearably loud, etc to get info is fine by me--if it gets information
The thing is, it often doesn't get information, or at least reliable information. It's been documented, by our own intelligence organizations no less, that torture is unreliable at getting information from a prisoner. The bottom line is that the vast majority of people will say absolutely anything in the face of torture and percieved death. Do they tell you the truth? Do they tell you what you want to hear? Do they make up complete and total bullhonkey? What if they really don't know the information you want and have to make shit up?
There may come a day when the U.S. Government wants information from YOU.
You were sitting at home.. minding your own damn business... one of your friends says you know this guy named Bill whos always spreading anti-gov't propoganda, and they want to know where he is. You don't know anyone named Bill, though.
Oh, you're a US citizen? Not anymore buddy.. we'll just make you an enemy combatant.
We'll lock you up in a room that isnt long enough to lie down in, and too short to stand up in. We'll leave your ass there for a month. Still don't know who Bill is? Back in you go.
Now lets lower the temperature.... and leave your ass there.
Now lets make it hot as balls and leave your ass there.
Now lets blast some music you HATE and not allow you to sleep for days.
Do you know who Bill is yet?
Lets pretend WE'RE DROWNING YOU! That'll be fun....
^^^with regards to waterboarding, i guess i would have to do my homework and read the geneva convention rules. however, if a handful of "terrorists" believe they are going to die, and decide to give up some knowledge that prevents an attack, then yes i believe it is worth it. we have to remember, the only people that receive this treatment are the people who either know, or suspected to know, highly confidential info. these are also the people who want to kill americans, and destroy "the big satan" (us of a) and "the little satan" (western europe). also, maybe im wrong, but dont the geneva convention rules only apply to pow's. when did terrorists become pow's? i personally believe they have no rights.
we are about to release all these gitmo prisoners into the us, and give them tax-payer money. not to be mean, but i really hope that these gitmo detainees that are about to be released move right in the neighborhoods of those who support the closing of gitmo. im sure i will be smited for that, but if you believe they are saints then you should have no problem with them living next door to you.
this post was supposed to be before the one right above it.
with regards to wonderllama's post--i dont know anyone named bill . i can see your argument, and there is some truth to that. however, the govt is not going after me, you, or the average joe. they are going after people who "more than likely" will know something, or proven to know something. mistakes are made all the time, look at all the tax-cheats that obama still trys to get on his cabinet. we have obama saying "look at the bigger picture" with regards to his reckless spending. well, take that phrase and apply it to the situation of the "suspected" terrorist. i would rather have a "mistake" made, and the us of a is safer, than not interrogating and getting no info, ever. not saying its perfect, but nothing govt does is. we do what we can with the information we are given.
we are about to release all these gitmo prisoners into the us, and give them tax-payer money. not to be mean, but i really hope that these gitmo detainees that are about to be released move right in the neighborhoods of those who support the closing of gitmo. im sure i will be smited for that, but if you believe they are saints then you should have no problem with them living next door to you.
we are about to release all these gitmo prisoners into the us, and give them tax-payer money. not to be mean, but i really hope that these gitmo detainees that are about to be released move right in the neighborhoods of those who support the closing of gitmo. im sure i will be smited for that, but if you believe they are saints then you should have no problem with them living next door to you.
I don't know where you got this information, but last I heard we're going around to different countries to see who will take those prisoners that we cannot/ will not charge with anything. The rest stand to be housed in some kind of prison in the US until they can stand trial. I've never heard anything about just letting them go on US soil with a wad of my tax money. Are you sure about this? And as a matter of fact, there are SOME prisoners in Gitmo, that I would have no problem living next door to, because they are in fact innocent, or at least we can provide no evidence whatsoever that they ever did anything to anyone, which is why they are not standing trial. Also, out of all the "terrorists" that the US has used "enhanced interrogation" techniques exactly zero have resulted in information that has prevented a direct and immediate threat to our country. The people doing that enhanced interrogation have admitted this.
Personally, I believe everyone has rights until they are acutally found guilty in a fair court of law. If that happens, then yes they should lose their rights. ANYONE can be declared an enemy combatant. There are no checks to this system. While they might be using this at the correct targets now, there is nothing to stop them from arresting political dissenters and protestors later down the line. Our government and military do make mistakes, and I personally think that whatever chance there is of them arresting, holding without trial, and tortuing an innocent person far outweighs any chance of possibly getting reliable information from an actual terrorist. Thres' no real way of actually measureing those statistics, but I would think they are a lot closer than a lot of people realize.
we are about to release all these gitmo prisoners into the us, and give them tax-payer money. not to be mean, but i really hope that these gitmo detainees that are about to be released move right in the neighborhoods of those who support the closing of gitmo. im sure i will be smited for that, but if you believe they are saints then you should have no problem with them living next door to you.
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Well if it is some guy who drove a cab in Kabul then pissed off the wrong person and got handed over to US troops. I would welcome him in my neighborhood with open arms. It is not like people are talking about letting the hardened criminals go. Simply punishing them in a manner consistent with US law. Not Bush I am making up as I go along law.
You mean to say that you guys would want Muslims, Arabs, and other "brown people" in your neighborhoods?!?!?!? Dont you realize they will murder you and stone your women? They will probably fly a remote controlled plane into your kids treehouse!
I really cant believe the level of hatred towards people that you know nothing about.
Yeah this we are gonna turn the terrorists loose on the street crap is naive at best. The US has a system for punishing evildoers that works perfectly fine. I am all for closing a illegal prison, that has become a drag on the moral authority of the US.
Last Edit: Apr 1, 2009 8:14:05 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Ex-federal official: Many Gitmo detainees innocent
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — A former Bush administration official says many Guantanamo detainees are innocent, and have been held only because U.S. officials hoped they would know something important.
Lawrence B. Wilkerson was chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell. He says only two dozen or so of the roughly 800 men held at Guantanamo are terrorists. About 240 prisoners remain at the US military prison.
"There are still innocent people there," Wilkerson told The Associated Press on Thursday. "Some have been there six or seven years."
Wilkerson says he learned of their innocence through State Department briefings and military commanders. He first made the allegations in an Internet posting this week.
The Pentagon has said the detainees are dangerous enemy combatants.
Of course there are innocent people there. A few years ago when there was a rash of suicides and about 500 prisoners there, only 10 had been charged with crimes. 10!
It is NOT okay, as Jigawig has suggested, to throw values and ideals out the window in the name of fighting terrorism. How can we espouse them if we aren't adhering to them ourselves?
You mean to say that you guys would want Muslims, Arabs, and other "brown people" in your neighborhoods?!?!?!? Dont you realize they will murder you and stone your women? They will probably fly a remote controlled plane into your kids treehouse!
I really cant believe the level of hatred towards people that you know nothing about.
Guess what?? I know alot about them. I lived in the middle east for close to two years. and you're right - the majority of them are innocent people just not necessarily the ones that are currently being held in prison.
Well take them out of prison and give them a trial. Let them be punished by the rule of law, just dont leave them in a chainlink fence enclosure in the Carribean for an indefinite amount of time.
In the seven years since the Bush administration established the military commissions system used at Gitmo, only three detainees have been convicted. And at the point that President Obama called a halt to the commissions, there are charges pending against only 21 of the 245 detainees.
Repatriate them, let the cases with conclusive evidence move to the federal courts or free them.
In the seven years since the Bush administration established the military commissions system used at Gitmo, only three detainees have been convicted. And at the point that President Obama called a halt to the commissions, there are charges pending against only 21 of the 245 detainees.
Repatriate them, let the cases with conclusive evidence move to the federal courts or free them.
(the comment below is just my opinion - I have read nothing or seen nothing that indicates this - it is strictly my opinion - which is formed based on living in the Middle East)
the interesting thing about sending them home is this - the majority of them will be killed when they return home anyway - if they are really innocent that is.
I am an avid civil libertarian and can no longer sit this out. I cannot understand people who have been scared to the point that they are willing to give up their God given rights for some ethereal promise that they will be kept safe.
You may be a scared little girl (no offense to little girls) who is willing to give up your freedom to some authoritarian figure who promises to hold your hand and tell you everything will be alright, but you have no right to give up mine. Bush's strategy (and supporters of his methods) seems to be that since "They hate our Freedom", all we need do is destroy our freedoms and they will leave us alone.
Free societies are inherently less safe than authoritarian ones. If can't handle it, move to less free state. My father, grandfather, brothers and myself have all served in the military and sworn to protect and defend the Constitution and just because terrorist can and will attack us is no reason to foreswear that oath and start whittling down the Bill of Rights.
I will not stand blithely by while the 4th, 6th, 11th (or the 2nd) Amendments are deemed irrelevant in the name of safety. I will not stand for unwarranted wiretapping, property seizures, record searches, home invasions, or "extraordinary renditions." Nor will I say it is okay to imprison and torture innocent people in my name in some wistful hope that maybe we will luck into illusory actionable intellgence.
I still believe that America is a nation set apart, a city on hill, if you will. We are a nation that attempts to demonstrate to the world that people can be free and society just, that this is not just a eutopian fantasy. We are a work in progress, not always right, but always attempting to better ourselves.
I am not ready to abandon the American experiment. And I believe that people will unfortunately continue to die so that we can remain what we are and strive to become. Freedom is not free and it is not only the soldiers who must pay the price of freedom. It is borne by us all.
Last Edit: Apr 1, 2009 11:29:36 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
with regards to the "weapons of mass destruction" phrase being changed, what was it changed to? i believe that due to the fact that no wmds were found, they just dropped the whole phrase all together. it wasnt that they changed it to something else. that is what i am talking about--sugar-coating something so you can please the world. that never happened with wmds
dude - I said that the word was scrapped, not changed.
So many of your arguments are lost because you haven't fully read the other person's post or haven't proofed your own. I know I never have - and probably never will - agree with your political views, but someone out there might if you just think about what you're posting a little bit.
I actually listened to a news program the other night on CNN, and they stated that roughly half of bankrupcies filed each year are due to medical bills. And what is even worse is that a majority of those people had some type of insurance. I think that is a sad, sad state of affairs. I have BC/BS, and every time I go to the dentist they're asking me why BC/BS never paid them for the last visit, so then I have to go calling them. It's sooo aggravating!!!! And I know mental health agencies like dealing with medicaid (as opposed to private companies) b/c they always get paid, and they get paid even more for case managing people on medicaid as well...so they love it and are always advocatng for people to be "case managed" (b/c that = more money from Medicaid). Everyone should watch Sicko. Hope it angers you as much as it did me.
ah oh, ye molly knows the CM secret. I did my professional growing up in community mental health. YOu are right on the nose. Must be an insider...
haha Fo sho! I have two friends who worked for mental health here for years, so I was always getting the low down (which often made me angry). AND my job involves me talking with workers from state agencies (including lots of people from mental health), so basically, I'm often just someone they can vent to, and boy have I heard some SHIESTY SHIT over the years.
2012 Wishlist: Radiohead Phish Daft Punk Ghostland Observatory Broken Social Scene Roger Waters Bell X1 Bonobo Chemical Brothers Fiona Apple Built to Spill Modest Mouse
I am an avid civil libertarian and can no longer sit this out. I cannot understand people who have been scared to the point that they are willing to give up their God given rights for some ethereal promise that they will be kept safe.
You may be a scared little girl (no offense to little girls) who is willing to give up your freedom to some authoritarian figure who promises to hold your hand and tell you everything will be alright, but you have no right to give up mine. Bush's strategy (and supporters of his methods) seems to be that since "They hate our Freedom", all we need do is destroy our freedoms and they will leave us alone.
Free societies are inherently less safe than authoritarian ones. If can't handle it, move to less free state. My father, grandfather, brothers and myself have all served in the military and sworn to protect and defend the Constitution and just because terrorist can and will attack us is no reason to foreswear that oath and start whittling down the Bill of Rights.
I will not stand blithely by while the 4th, 6th, 11th (or the 2nd) Amendments are deemed irrelevant in the name of safety. I will not stand for unwarranted wiretapping, property seizures, record searches, home invasions, or "extraordinary renditions." Nor will I say it is okay to imprison and torture innocent people in my name in some wistful hope that maybe we will luck into illusory actionable intellgence.
I still believe that America is a nation set apart, a city on hill, if you will. We are a nation that attempts to demonstrate to the world that people can be free and society just, that this is not just a eutopian fantasy. We are a work in progress, not always right, but always attempting to better ourselves.
I am not ready to abandon the American experiment. And I believe that people will unfortunately continue to die so that we can remain what we are and strive to become. Freedom is not free and it is not only the soldiers who must pay the price of freedom. It is borne by us all.
You mean to say that you guys would want Muslims, Arabs, and other "brown people" in your neighborhoods?!?!?!? Dont you realize they will murder you and stone your women? They will probably fly a remote controlled plane into your kids treehouse!
I really cant believe the level of hatred towards people that you know nothing about.
Guess what?? I know alot about them. I lived in the middle east for close to two years. and you're right - the majority of them are innocent people just not necessarily the ones that are currently being held in prison.
Thats exactly my point. So you lived in the "middle east" for close to two years. That means you know these people? Where did you live? Because the blanket term "middle east" is next to meaningless when describing the people of even one country much less multiple countries. That is no different than someone saying "I lived in America for close to two years and the people there are _______, ______." See what I am saying? Look at the differences between people in the US just on this tiny website. To even think that you could get a grasp of what people in the US are like from one section is ludicrous. Just like to try and claim you know what the entire Muslim nation is like by living in one country for two years is, hell if you lived there for two hundred years it would be nearly impossible.