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Why can't the United States just have a big, all-encompassing music fest rather than have all of our festivals cater to a certain crowd. You guys know what I'm talking about.
It seems like no American festival is daring enough to stretch beyond their scheme. Sure, Bonnaroo is becoming more diverse, but if you look, there are still all of these bands and artists who "Don't belong at the 'Roo". I don't like that. Good music is good music. I don't see anything at all wrong with festivals that DO center around one genre or 'type' of music fan, but in the US, we don't have any JUST music festivals.
We have Bonnaroo, of course, which, in my opinion, is the best and most diverse of the major US Festivals. But it's still limited, and certainly still tilted toward the jam band/"hippie" music fans.
We have Coachella, which is probably right behind Bonnaroo, but has definite diversity problems. Sure, there might be a few exceptions, but generally Coachella hinders to the indie/alternative/nu-hipster crowd.
We also have Lollapalooza, which I believe is far behind the other two in terms of size, quality and diversity. While there are, on any given festival a certain amount of high and ultra high quality artists, I believe Lolla, moreso bases their artists on ticket sales than artist quality (not that the others don't, mind you...I simply believe Lolla takes it more into account). Also, Lollapalooza is obviously aimed at the nu-indie/nu-hipser scene. I had much more respect for this festival in the 90s.
Then we have a series of other festivals around the US that focus to some degree on both the jam scene and the nu-hipster scene. Langerado, Sasquatch, ACL, etc.
Then we have festivals like the New England Metal and Hardcore Festival, which is a wide variety of heavy metal and hardcore genres.
Then you have touring festivals like Ozzfest and Warped Tour, which focus on hard rock and heavy metal genres, and pop-punk and punk genres, respectively.
Finally you have many small music festivals that cater to very specific genres, beit heavy metal or jam bands or indie or jazz or country.
Bottom line is, I would like to see a festival in the US built in the vein of Bonnaroo or Coachella, that has NO artist limitations. I would simply like to see one, big full MUSIC festival.
Sorry if I started rambing in there. It's after 5. I should sleep. I just don't like hearing that a certain artist should not be at a festival because they don't fit in with the rest of the bands. Variety and Diversity is a GOOD thing. The only thing that matters is if the tunes are good, and since thats very much an objective thing, that should lean that much more toward artist diversity.
just kidding. i'm with you except for one thing: the crowds. we all saw what can go wrong at woodstock '99. and there were some quality acts there. but one of my favorite things about the roo, and this is something i always tell noobs when i bring em with me (so far i have 2 coming this year!) is that whatever happens, everyone you see around you are your friends. and i think that's generally true of the roo community. i'll do whatever i need to to take care of everyone around me, be it giving them a beer and a chair at my camp site to chill for a while, or carrying a stranger who's had a little too much fun out of the crowd and into the arms of safety (like i did at tool last year). certain acts carry with them the possibility of certain fans unaccustomed to the environment exploiting the good will around them by rioting, starting fights, stealing, and sexual assault like we saw in 99. i'm not some sort of festival elitist who says people don't deserve the chance to experience something amazing or have no place at bonnaroo, but i'm also realistic about the fact that what we have is a good thing and i'm not down with the idea of losing it because one year things got a little too out of control.
just kidding. i'm with you except for one thing: the crowds. we all saw what can go wrong at woodstock '99. and there were some quality acts there. but one of my favorite things about the roo, and this is something i always tell noobs when i bring em with me (so far i have 2 coming this year!) is that whatever happens, everyone you see around you are your friends. and i think that's generally true of the roo community. i'll do whatever i need to to take care of everyone around me, be it giving them a beer and a chair at my camp site to chill for a while, or carrying a stranger who's had a little too much fun out of the crowd and into the arms of safety (like i did at tool last year). certain acts carry with them the possibility of certain fans unaccustomed to the environment exploiting the good will around them by rioting, starting fights, stealing, and sexual assault like we saw in 99. i'm not some sort of festival elitist who says people don't deserve the chance to experience something amazing or have no place at bonnaroo, but i'm also realistic about the fact that what we have is a good thing and i'm not down with the idea of losing it because one year things got a little too out of control.
Honestly in my personal opinion, the crowd is definitely one of my LEAST favorite things about Bonnaroo.
Post by strumntheguitar on Dec 23, 2007 13:17:41 GMT -5
This would work in the ideal world, but unfortunately we don't live in one...
I love the idea of every music genre getting a chance to represent their style at one festie, I really do. It would give people a chance to be exposed to music that they otherwise will never hear. The crowd I think would produce a lot of trouble tho... What happens when you mix the hardcore death metal heads with wooks and with the emos? Conflict. It has the potential to be like high school all over again... different niches segregating themselves and butchering the other group's taste in music.
This would work in the ideal world, but unfortunately we don't live in one...
I love the idea of every music genre getting a chance to represent their style at one festie, I really do. It would give people a chance to be exposed to music that they otherwise will never hear. The crowd I think would produce a lot of trouble tho... What happens when you mix the hardcore death metal heads with wooks and with the emos? Conflict. It has the potential to be like high school all over again... different niches segregating themselves and butchering the other group's taste in music.
Honestly in my personal opinion, the crowd is definitely one of my LEAST favorite things about Bonnaroo.
i can understand not liking the crowd as in "it's a giant mass of people that makes it more difficult to move and get where i want to be," but as far as people are concerned, i'm all about the bonnaroo fans. i've had nothing but good experiences.
Why can't the United States just have a big, all-encompassing music fest rather than have all of our festivals cater to a certain crowd. You guys know what I'm talking about.
We also have Lollapalooza, which I believe is far behind the other two in terms of size, quality and diversity.
If there was one, big all-encompassing music fest, there would be several million people trying to get tickets for the fest. You'd also need about 500 bands. That wouldn't work so well.
As for the Lolla comment, I believe it was one of the best festivals in 2007 (for many different reasons). The music was excellent, Chicago is a phenomenal city, Grant Park is a great place to have concerts, and on a personal note, it had some of the best "perks" for media including afterparties and lounges with the musicians at the Hard Rock Hotel (I got a tattoo redone for free by a Miami Ink guy).
Some people get angry that Bonnaroo keeps changing and reinventing itself. I think that constant reinvention is the key to it's survival. I know there are many people would be perfect content on seeing Panic or STS9 every single year, but there are many others who like to see a progression in Superfly's booking. I'm def a supporter of a constantly changing festival, especially since there's something for everyone at Roo. True, I've only been to 1 Roo so far, but I've def looked into past bookings, and they're making some smart booking decisions and changes as the years go on.
Ummmm....actually....there are lots of festies that are exactly what you describe....but they are regional or local fests.....peeps just haven't discovered them yet....
Big Spring Jam....here in Hsv....is EXACTLY what you just described....5 stages.....one sponsored by the local country radio station that has MOSTLY country acts with some folk/bluegrass/alt-country - a Contemporary Christian/Kids stage - a Pop/Oldies/Classic Rock stage, an Alt-Rock/Indie/Metalesque stage and then kind of a "we don't really know what else to do with you so we'll stick you ummmmm HERE! ;D" stage - Dr John to the North Mississippi Allstars to P-Funk stage ;D (one of my personal faves! )
So.....yeah....they are out there.....just not BIG HUGE HONKIN' NANTIONALISTIC things that would be impossible to get around in.....
true, true. it seems like now every major city has a small/mid-size festival of its own. i grew up going to the memphis in may beale street music fest. i've been to fests like that all over the south - little rock, nashville, nola, miami, jacksonville, atlanta - and those are just the big cities. tons of towns have word of mouth events. besides, even though bands like korn or kid rock would sell tickets and draw in a lot of fans, personally i'd rather their stage time go to someone i'm more interested in like col. bruce or damien rice or sasha or common (notice all have played roo and none sound anything alike).
Post by canexplain on Dec 23, 2007 15:01:20 GMT -5
i went to watkins glen, and although i was one of the highlights to my concert past, i do not remember one band i SAW there ... sure we heard it, but it was too many people ... it was an event as opposed to a real music fest ... think about that when you want a US fest ...600k vs the roo 80k ..... that means for every roo person, there were about 8 of us ... cr**
Many historians claimed that the Watkins Glen even was the largest gathering of people in the history of the United States. In essence, that meant that on July 28, one out of every 350 people living in America at the time was listening to the sounds of rock at the New York state racetrack. Considering that most of those who attended the event hailed from the Northeast, and that the average age of those present was approximately seventeen to twenty-four, close to one out of every three young people from Boston to New York was at the festival.[1]
Ummmm....actually....there are lots of festies that are exactly what you describe....but they are regional or local fests.....peeps just haven't discovered them yet....
Big Spring Jam....here in Hsv....is EXACTLY what you just described....5 stages.....one sponsored by the local country radio station that has MOSTLY country acts with some folk/bluegrass/alt-country - a Contemporary Christian/Kids stage - a Pop/Oldies/Classic Rock stage, an Alt-Rock/Indie/Metalesque stage and then kind of a "we don't really know what else to do with you so we'll stick you ummmmm HERE! ;D" stage - Dr John to the North Mississippi Allstars to P-Funk stage ;D (one of my personal faves! )
So.....yeah....they are out there.....just not BIG HUGE HONKIN' NANTIONALISTIC things that would be impossible to get around in.....
haha thats not at all exactly what I was describing.
Post by steveternal on Dec 23, 2007 22:45:58 GMT -5
I think a fundamental problem, in solving this problem and in how people are discussing it here, is different concepts about what "all kinds of music" means.
I think a fundamental problem, in solving this problem and in how people are discussing it here, is different concepts about what "all kinds of music" means.
LOL! Thanks Steve! Exactly! Do you mean "All Kinds of Rock Music??" Or "All kinds of Cool Music??" or "All Kinds of Music I Really Dig???" ALL KINDS OF MUSIC to me means...well...ALL KINDS OF MUSIC! What a concept! Jazz....classical...rock...hip hop...rap...soul...r&b...gospel....contemp christian....country...bluegrass....folk....rock...classic rock...indie rock...alt rock....metal...jam...oldies.....kids......latin...alltheothersIhavenotmentioned...... ??? NOT just my personal tastes in music.......I really thought you meant a REAL encompassing National Music Festival....silly me
I think a fundamental problem, in solving this problem and in how people are discussing it here, is different concepts about what "all kinds of music" means.
LOL! Thanks Steve! Exactly! Do you mean "All Kinds of Rock Music??" Or "All kinds of Cool Music??" or "All Kinds of Music I Really Dig???" ALL KINDS OF MUSIC to me means...well...ALL KINDS OF MUSIC! What a concept! Jazz....classical...rock...hip hop...rap...soul...r&b...gospel....contemp christian....country...bluegrass....folk....rock...classic rock...indie rock...alt rock....metal...jam...oldies.....kids......latin...alltheothersIhavenotmentioned...... ??? NOT just my personal tastes in music.......I really thought you meant a REAL encompassing National Music Festival....silly me
I'm not even sure YOU know what you're talking about.
I wasn't referring to anything involving my personal taste. I don't know where you got that. I AM talking about a major American music festival that involves a lot of artists of diverse and varied genres of music.
Post by strumntheguitar on Dec 24, 2007 0:56:58 GMT -5
chandler said:
I'm not even sure YOU know what you're talking about.
I wasn't referring to anything involving my personal taste. I don't know where you got that. I AM talking about a major American music festival that involves a lot of artists of diverse and varied genres of music.
I'll let bama's words respond to this...
bamabelle said:
Big Spring Jam....here in Hsv....is EXACTLY what you just described....5 stages.....one sponsored by the local country radio station that has MOSTLY country acts with some folk/bluegrass/alt-country - a Contemporary Christian/Kids stage - a Pop/Oldies/Classic Rock stage, an Alt-Rock/Indie/Metalesque stage and then kind of a "we don't really know what else to do with you so we'll stick you ummmmm HERE! ;D" stage - Dr John to the North Mississippi Allstars to P-Funk stage ;D (one of my personal faves! )
This festie described has country/folk/bluegrass/alt-country/gospel/kids tune/pop/oldies/classic rock/alt-rock/indie/metalesque/other.
Do you really need more variety than that?? If so... I have no idea the caliber of music fest you have in mind... I don't know if there are enough genres for ya if that's the case...
But seriously tho, what festies in Europe are you trying to imitate just so that I, as well as others, can see more exactly what you're talking about as far as line ups go.
I'm not even sure YOU know what you're talking about.
I wasn't referring to anything involving my personal taste. I don't know where you got that. I AM talking about a major American music festival that involves a lot of artists of diverse and varied genres of music.
I'll let bama's words respond to this...
bamabelle said:
Big Spring Jam....here in Hsv....is EXACTLY what you just described....5 stages.....one sponsored by the local country radio station that has MOSTLY country acts with some folk/bluegrass/alt-country - a Contemporary Christian/Kids stage - a Pop/Oldies/Classic Rock stage, an Alt-Rock/Indie/Metalesque stage and then kind of a "we don't really know what else to do with you so we'll stick you ummmmm HERE! ;D" stage - Dr John to the North Mississippi Allstars to P-Funk stage ;D (one of my personal faves! )
This festie described has country/folk/bluegrass/alt-country/gospel/kids tune/pop/oldies/classic rock/alt-rock/indie/metalesque/other.
Do you really need more variety than that?? If so... I have no idea the caliber of music fest you have in mind... I don't know if there are enough genres for ya if that's the case...
I've looked at the lineups, and theres nothing more diverse than any other American Music festival. In fact, due to its relatively small size, its even less so than most festivals. I'm talking about a Bonnaroo/Coachella sized festival.
Who knew I'd have such opposition to this idea from a group of such "open-minded" "music fans".
Post by strumntheguitar on Dec 24, 2007 1:16:11 GMT -5
Incase you missed the edit on my post, cause i think you were posting while I was editing... What specific festies are you talking about in Europe so that we can get a better idea of your diverse line up
chandler said:
Who knew I'd have such opposition to this idea from a group of such "open-minded" "music fans".
It's not so much opposition as opinions as to why we might not have such festies and further more, well-intended suggestions to help you maybe find something that you're looking for.
Just because we don't say "YEAH! You're totally right! ROCK ON!!!!!" doesn't mean we are opposing you and rejecting your thoughts. If anything, these answers have been as open minded as anything on this board...
Yeah...I think we are just trying to get a read on what....exactly...you are wanting to emulate in the USA that isn't here? I mean... I KNEW that BSJ wasn't as BIG as Coach or Lolly or Bonnaroo...wasn't MEANING it to be soo....but it IS more diverse...which is what I THOUGHT you were getting at....
But if you are looking for a USA Reading or Glastonbury or Jam at the Dam or PinkPop.....I don't think that will ever happen....and I don't personally think those are really very diverse festies to begin with ???
and no...Bonnaroo may have one or two artists that represent a certain genre.
say last year you had Tortoise to represent post-rock. Rx Bandits to represent the entire genre of punk (or pop-punk, either way) The Flaming Lips to represent umm...psychedelic? sure, lets go that route. Tool to represent progressive rock Ziggy Marley and I suppose Michael Franti to represent reggae
but to represent alternative/indie rock, you've got: The White Stripes Wilco Franz Ferdinand Ween The Decemberists Kings of Leon Wolfmother The Hold Steady Spoon Fountains of Wayne Feist Cold War Kids Hot Chip The National Mute Math Annuals and the list keeps on going
and with the admittedly broad genre of "Jam Bands": Widespread Panic Bob Weir & Ratdog Gov't Mule String Cheese Incident Railroad Earth North Mississippi Allstars The Slip STS9 Galactic Tea Leaf Green and etc.
just between those two genres thats most of the big names on the festival. And I know I'll get hell for it, but it seems that anything at all edgy or at all "heavy" is completely taboo. Tool got pissed on every day leading up to Bonnaroo for not being True to the Roo spirit. And they're not even heavy!
But anything REAL punk or REAL metal or REAL hardcore (keep in mind, three very broad genres) or hell....how about some noise-rock or crust or screamo or experimental...or a decent balance of some progressive, or psychedelic or post-rock or even jazz (Ornette was fantastic, but how about some more big names?) What about some ambient or trip-hop? How about a symphonic tent? How about some more REAL country Again, Ralph Stanley was a fantastic choice, but come on.
*sigh*
you know....forget about it. Just ignore this thread. Sorry I brought it up.
Post by steveternal on Dec 24, 2007 10:09:36 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion about American festivals, but I do want to defend a better understanding of musical diversity. In that sense, I agree with chandler (at least I think I do-- I haven't seen his definition).
bamabelle, I applaud you for your effort, but there really are so very many more kinds of music made all over the world and throughout history. You used the catch-all "everything I forgot", but even still you're speaking as if what you did mention was all that mattered. For instance, in your list you have 7different kinds of rock (8 if you count the fact that you listed "rock" twice): rock, classic rock, indie rock, alt rock, metal, jambands, oldies. And I'm sure we can all agree that still leaves out a lot of important subgenres of rock. BUT my real point is in this same list you have simply "jazz", as if that is all that's needed to cover that genre. If you went to a jazz fest you'd see as many kinds of jazz as you could name for rock: bop, post-bop, hard-bop, west coast jazz, cool jazz, swing, big band, acid jazz, free jazz, modern creative jazz, jazztronica, gypsy jazz, jazz-rock, jazz-funk, and jazz combined with dozens of other styles of music like hip-hop, ambient, classical, traditional Indian, traditional Japanese, etc. And of course those genres I listed at the end each can be subdivided into theoretically infinite parts, just as jazz can, and just as rock can. So "jazz" was just one example. My point is that to speak of diversity of music goes far beyond what any one person can ever discover or know. There's just too much music being made to every fully understand what "music" really means. I think I know a lot about different kinds of music and have a very diverse taste, but honestly what I know and enjoy is just the tip of the iceberg. I know absolutely nothing about the music of 19th century Sri-Lanka, but of course they would have had a vibrant indigenous musical culture. Perhaps I'm rambling, as I feel I'm not getting my point across. I hope I didn't offend anyone, bamabelle, chandler, or whoever. I just wanted to make a point about which I feel very strongly. No hard feelings, and positive vibes all around.
Oh....absolutely no hard feelings....and I am mad about anyone smiting chandler for HIS views on the subject ! We may not all agree but.....isn't that the whole point??? LOL! What a weary, dreary world this would be if we ALL had the same musical tastes! And I COMPLETELY see EVERYONE'S point (though I think Chandler is cutting Roo a bit short...there WAS the Blue Note tent that has LOTS of other Jazz acts...and the smaller cafe tents that had lots of other acts that you were free to go enjoy....and yes Ralph Stanley was there...but so were Gillian Welch, Unlcle Earl and several Blue Grass/Folk acts which I think he would have liked if he wanted more country atomosphere... but NOT Dirks!)
BUT....the REAL point is that the ENTIRE musical scene is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO big a Festival to cover EVERYTHING would last....wel....ALL YEAR! ;D ;D ;D And while that would be FREAKIN' AWESOME!!!! I think I might lose my job LOL!
Even the REALLY BIG festies in Europe don't try to DO IT ALL....and I guess my point is I don't think they do it ANY BETTER than 'Roo or Coach or VooDoo....just....well...BIGGER (only in # of attendees...) maybe, Chandler...what you want is a more diverse METAL or Punk festie??? Hey...I think you could get some peeps on board around here for that! And.....I gave you your lost karma back....bad karma should ALWAYS get offset with good ESP on Christmas!! ;D
Tool got pissed on every day leading up to Bonnaroo for not being True to the Roo spirit.
I think the true spirit of Bonnaroo is about the "Family of the Music Community." Everyone plays their own part in it... Not just the musicians, but everyone involved.
imo, there really is only 2 genres: music you enjoy and music you don't. it's impossible to have the "perfect" variety, whether you're trying to please 80,000 people or 8.
;D (one of my personal faves! 
)
! We may not all agree but.....isn't that the whole point??? LOL! What a weary, dreary world this would be if we ALL had the same musical tastes! And I COMPLETELY see EVERYONE'S point (though I think Chandler is cutting Roo a bit short...there WAS the Blue Note tent that has LOTS of other Jazz acts...and the smaller cafe tents that had lots of other acts that you were free to go enjoy....and yes Ralph Stanley was there...but so were Gillian Welch, Unlcle Earl and several Blue Grass/Folk acts which I think he would have liked if he wanted more country atomosphere... 
but NOT Dirks!)
LOL!
