Whether it's your first Bonnaroo or you’re a music festival veteran, we welcome you to Inforoo.
Here you'll find info about artists, rumors, camping tips, and the infamous Roo Clues. Have a look around then create an account and join in the fun. See you at Bonnaroo!!
It was refreshing to see another team get stomped as badly as we were stomped (for 6 out of 8 quarters). It was also incredibly boring.
I'm curious to see how this debacle will affect the next few drafts. When QBs started taking over the league, everyone wanted to start focusing on building up the offenses. When QBs started succeeding with their legs, everyone wants a mobile QB. I predict we start seeing teams revert back to focusing on defense.
I don't know where the idea that teams stopped focusing on defense came from, but that's a pretty commonly held opinion.
Teams didn't just start ignoring defenses. The league made it harder for defenses to defend, by doing everything from instituting rules to aid offensive players in getting open to preventing defenders from head-hunting over the middle (which had a huge impact on the routes receivers are now able to run). Some of these are good changes, some aren't.
But teams never gave up on defense, there are just a very small number of coaches who can consistently coach above-average defense and a smaller list of those coaches who have the talent on the roster to coach to the best of their abilities. And that list is growing smaller.
Teams thought "power running and defense" was a death sentence in the modern NFL. In a league where everyone wants the next Greatest Show On Turf, running a monster RB into a brick wall over and over and winning games where both teams score under 20 points was a bad thing. Except when you win, apparently.
There are teams that are set up to follow the mold the Seahawks use (Jets, Panthers, Cleveland, Billdos, and a few others), teams that are fixated on running the ball and playing defense. Before you jump down my throat, folks...no, I am not saying the Jets are the next Seahawks. I'm saying that teams are not abandoning power running and elite defense as a winning strategy no matter what ESPN tries to tell you.
Football is a simple game, made complex by the idiots who need to find things to talk about 24 hours a day. The things that worked 30 years ago will work today, it's just a matter of doing them properly.
Post by Jake Jortles on Feb 3, 2014 17:46:04 GMT -5
Wasn't the storyline that not much of the seattle defense was taken in the first three rounds anyways? QB is still the single most important position. And I'd still say offense is a little more important as far as winning 10 games and at least making the playoffs goes. Not to mention media coverage and such.
For some reason it seems like a great defense is able to be more consistent over 3-4 games in the playoffs against good/great teams (no matter the weather) than a a great offense is.
I still can't wrap my head around the '07 Pats. They had both.
Wasn't the storyline that not much of the seattle defense was taken in the first three rounds anyways? QB is still the single most important position. And I'd still say offense is a little more important as far as winning 10 games and at least making the playoffs goes. Not to mention media coverage and such.
For some reason it seems like a great defense is able to be more consistent over 3-4 games in the playoffs against good/great teams (no matter the weather) than a a great offense is.
I still can't wrap my head around the '07 Pats. They had both.
That '07 Pats team had a slightly-above-average defense, it was just made better by the fact that they played with huge leads every week and never had to play the run for the most part.
And my point wasn't that defense > offense, but instead that there's many ways to build a winner, but tried and true methods like "power running and defense" don't just go away because they're "boring" to the average fan. Until teams stop winning with that style, teams will continue to use it.
Wasn't the storyline that not much of the seattle defense was taken in the first three rounds anyways? QB is still the single most important position. And I'd still say offense is a little more important as far as winning 10 games and at least making the playoffs goes. Not to mention media coverage and such.
For some reason it seems like a great defense is able to be more consistent over 3-4 games in the playoffs against good/great teams (no matter the weather) than a a great offense is.
I still can't wrap my head around the '07 Pats. They had both.
That '07 Pats team had a slightly-above-average defense, it was just made better by the fact that they played with huge leads every week and never had to play the run for the most part.
And my point wasn't that defense > offense, but instead that there's many ways to build a winner, but tried and true methods like "power running and defense" don't just go away because they're "boring" to the average fan. Until teams stop winning with that style, teams will continue to use it.
I wasn't responding directly to you, just commenting on the topic. I have a rosy memory of that pats defense. I'll have to look at it again.
That '07 Pats team had a slightly-above-average defense, it was just made better by the fact that they played with huge leads every week and never had to play the run for the most part.
And my point wasn't that defense > offense, but instead that there's many ways to build a winner, but tried and true methods like "power running and defense" don't just go away because they're "boring" to the average fan. Until teams stop winning with that style, teams will continue to use it.
I wasn't responding directly to you, just commenting on the topic. I have a rosy memory of that pats defense. I'll have to look at it again.
I just took the opportunity to clarify what I was saying, no worries.
That Pats defense ranked really high iirc, but I think you can count the times they were playing without a lead on one hand. That offense was just unbelievable, I remember consider it a victory when the Jets only lost 20-10
I wasn't responding directly to you, just commenting on the topic. I have a rosy memory of that pats defense. I'll have to look at it again.
I just took the opportunity to clarify what I was saying, no worries.
That Pats defense ranked really high iirc, but I think you can count the times they were playing without a lead on one hand. That offense was just unbelievable, I remember consider it a victory when the Jets only lost 20-10
I was lil younger but I still feel like that was the best team I ever saw. I know they lost but w/e. Their d had to be a lot better than this broncos d at least.
And why do you feel that having a lead skews stats in favor of a defense. I thought garbage time and all would inflate an opposing teams stats
I just took the opportunity to clarify what I was saying, no worries.
That Pats defense ranked really high iirc, but I think you can count the times they were playing without a lead on one hand. That offense was just unbelievable, I remember consider it a victory when the Jets only lost 20-10
I was lil younger but I still feel like that was the best team I ever saw. I know they lost but w/e. Their d had to be a lot better than this broncos d at least.
And why do you feel that having a lead skews stats in favor of a defense. I thought garbage time and all would inflate an opposing teams stats
When you have some idiot head coach who rests on a lead and plays prevent? Yeah, garbage time is when you give up points/yards. When you have a head coach who ingrains a certain "I am going to fucking eat your soul" mentality in his team, the defense looks at those situations as facing a wounded animal. That defense was good, don't get me wrong, they were opportunistic and once teams went down it was easy to pin their ears back and rush the passer with little worry of facing a legit rushing attack. That's why it was easier, when teams went into chuck-and-duck mode, they knew they had them and just ate teams alive in those situations.
Good, not great, defense, coupled with an insane offense, made for one of the best teams ever. But the Giants did the same thing Seattle did to the "best offense ever"...smacked it's QB in the teeth and beat the crap out of them.
It's a lot easier to play defense when you're up 21-28 in the second half and you know the other team is going to pass b/c they need to catch up to Tom Brady/Randy Moss/Wes Welker.
It's a lot easier to play defense when you're up 21-28 in the second half quarter and you know the other team is going to pass b/c they need to catch up to Tom Brady/Randy Moss/Wes Welker.
Its so early into the process I try not to pay attention to reports like this. I'll say though that in talking with my friends or hearing people call in on the local sport station, it seems that most people are split on what the Texans should do with the pick. Personally I'm not too high on Teddy Bridgewater. Every year he improved in college, but what I'm not sold on his is level of competition. Not exactly the strongest conference. However, Bridgewater does have the size though.
Me personally I like Johnny Football. What I like most about him is he performs at his highest level in his biggest games. Against Alabama his freshman year, against OU in the Cotton Bowl, against Alabama this year, and then against Duke in his final game. Obviously the knock on Johnny Manzel his is size and questionable character off the field.
I don't quite understand why people question his work ethic. From what I've read the dude practices like a hoss. Just because the guy goes out and lives like a regular 20yr old doesn't mean he's a lazy bum.
And I don't know squat about Bortles so I can't say much about him.
You're just too young to grasp how stylin' I really was. All the boys wanted to do me when I was 5. Actually the girls did too. My haircut was confusing.
Its so early into the process I try not to pay attention to reports like this. I'll say though that in talking with my friends or hearing people call in on the local sport station, it seems that most people are split on what the Texans should do with the pick. Personally I'm not too high on Teddy Bridgewater. Every year he improved in college, but what I'm not sold on his is level of competition. Not exactly the strongest conference. However, Bridgewater does have the size though.
Me personally I like Johnny Football. What I like most about him is he performs at his highest level in his biggest games. Against Alabama his freshman year, against OU in the Cotton Bowl, against Alabama this year, and then against Duke in his final game. Obviously the knock on Johnny Manzel his is size and questionable character off the field.
I don't quite understand why people question his work ethic. From what I've read the dude practices like a hoss. Just because the guy goes out and lives like a regular 20yr old doesn't mean he's a lazy bum.
And I don't know squat about Bortles so I can't say much about him.
I don't think it's work ethic people question or have concern over, I think it's the fact that Manziel is a rock star, and if you give him millions of dollars and put him in the spotlight of an NFL franchise, he could spin right off the deep end. Partying, etc. Or he could just be what he's been in college and a dude who likes his booze and his football, but doesn't let one screw with the other.
My reasons for not liking Manziel are on-field reasons, I think his whole "fuck you guys" persona is hilarious.
For me, Teddy B > Manziel for an NFL team and it's not all that close.
I don't think it's work ethic people question or have concern over, I think it's the fact that Manziel is a rock star, and if you give him millions of dollars and put him in the spotlight of an NFL franchise, he could spin right off the deep end. Partying, etc. Or he could just be what he's been in college and a dude who likes his booze and his football, but doesn't let one screw with the other.
My reasons for not liking Manziel are on-field reasons, I think his whole "fuck you guys" persona is hilarious.
For me, Teddy B > Manziel for an NFL team and it's not all that close.
Is it not all that close to you for the reason you are stating or because of on the field things?
I never thought I would be the guy saying I would take Manziel but here I am saying I would take him. There is nothing to show anything he does off the field impacts him on the field. In addition, at the next level you now are surrounded with guys 10 years + older than you that wont stand for that crap in thier locker room. He has people teaching him about his brand now. I dont think that means he will be a changed man I think it means you wont see him getting kicked out of a UT frat party anymore and his image will be carefully crafted. We dont hear about all these parties with strippers on boats etc until something goes wrong at one. They happen all the time, we just dont know about it. As stated earlier, he consistently performs at the highest level in the biggest games. That is generally not a skill that can be taught. He is a fucking gamer. No fear. My biggest concern for him is some of the chances he takes in college could become mistakes in the NFL. As a Bears fan, I would make the comparison to Jay Cutler who thinks he can make any throw at any time. You like that confidence you just dont want him to try to do too much. I like Bridgewater too but I wouldnt take him over Manziel.
I don't think it's work ethic people question or have concern over, I think it's the fact that Manziel is a rock star, and if you give him millions of dollars and put him in the spotlight of an NFL franchise, he could spin right off the deep end. Partying, etc. Or he could just be what he's been in college and a dude who likes his booze and his football, but doesn't let one screw with the other.
My reasons for not liking Manziel are on-field reasons, I think his whole "fuck you guys" persona is hilarious.
For me, Teddy B > Manziel for an NFL team and it's not all that close.
Is it not all that close to you for the reason you are stating or because of on the field things?
I never thought I would be the guy saying I would take Manziel but here I am saying I would take him. There is nothing to show anything he does off the field impacts him on the field. In addition, at the next level you now are surrounded with guys 10 years + older than you that wont stand for that crap in thier locker room. He has people teaching him about his brand now. I dont think that means he will be a changed man I think it means you wont see him getting kicked out of a UT frat party anymore and his image will be carefully crafted. We dont hear about all these parties with strippers on boats etc until something goes wrong at one. They happen all the time, we just dont know about it. As stated earlier, he consistently performs at the highest level in the biggest games. That is generally not a skill that can be taught. He is a fucking gamer. No fear. My biggest concern for him is some of the chances he takes in college could become mistakes in the NFL. As a Bears fan, I would make the comparison to Jay Cutler who thinks he can make any throw at any time. You like that confidence you just dont want him to try to do too much. I like Bridgewater too but I wouldnt take him over Manziel.
I thought I pretty clearly stated I don't want him for on-field reasons, but if that wasn't clear hopefully it is now. Whatever team takes him will surround him with so much guidance he'll have to get sign-offs to go out to dinner. That's not my concern at all.
My concern is strictly on-field. For starters, I don't think Manziel is the 6'1" he is listed at. I think he's 5'11", which matters. He's also listed at 200-205 pounds, which I expect to be high. But everyone knows about his size. It's his style that's more troublesome for me.
People keep saying he's "just like" Russell Wilson, which I don't quite understand. For starters, Wilson has catchers mits for hands and has a rocket launcher for an arm. Manziel has neither. Wilson is a pocket-passer who moves when forced to or when the play calls for it. He's perfectly happy sitting in a clean pocket and picking you apart. Manziel is a mobile QB, he tends to force movement when it's not necessary, and he's constantly throwing on the run. NFL teams, while moving towards offenses that factor in QB movement, still aren't fans of using their QB's like it's a backyard football game. Russell Wilson knows how to take care of his body and knows how to run as an NFL QB. He knows when to slide, to skip out of bounds, when to/not to go for that extra yard, he's a much more mental player. Manziel is much more wreckless, and when he's trying to out-run 6'4" 280 pound men who both dwarf him and move faster than he does, he will get utterly destroyed. I am not bullish on Manziel's durability at the NFL level.
His mechanics also aren't that great. He does that jump pass thing a lot. Joe Namath did it, too, so I have a fond place in my heart for it as a Jets fan, but it's a terrible play that will get picked off often in the NFL. NFL safeties go to sleep and dream about shit passes like that.
He reminds me of Michael Vick without the cannon. Not that Manziel's arm is weak, it's just nowhere near elite for the NFL. He's mobile, he'll make plays with his arm and his feet, but I can't see him playing a lot of full, 16-game seasons. I think his destiny is Michael Vick 2.0, where he'll flash brilliance that defies description in between huge stretches of inconsistent, mistake-prone play.
Post by muppetstakethefarm on Feb 5, 2014 14:53:39 GMT -5
My bad, I should read things a second time. It was pretty clear you said on field. No, I dont at all think he is Russeel Wilson either. With the rule changes the NFL has had and may continue, I see it far more likely he plays full 16 game seasons but even a 14 game season for QBs these days is acceptable. Hes not RG3's style of play and guys like Russell and Kap have not missed games and never were exposed to the far more physical handling that guys like Vick and Big Ben have earlier in thier career.
This is just a question and I dont know the answer either. Hes still a kid. The issues you raise above about sliding and going out of bounds etc... Don't you think these are coachable things at the NFL level? Not every guy (yes even in the SEC) at the college level coming at him is 6'4 280 with NFL sped and at this level it will make for a more compelling reason to step out of bounds or slide. You cant teach the instinct he has. You can coach those items though.
I don't think it's work ethic people question or have concern over, I think it's the fact that Manziel is a rock star, and if you give him millions of dollars and put him in the spotlight of an NFL franchise, he could spin right off the deep end. Partying, etc. Or he could just be what he's been in college and a dude who likes his booze and his football, but doesn't let one screw with the other.
My reasons for not liking Manziel are on-field reasons, I think his whole "fuck you guys" persona is hilarious.
For me, Teddy B > Manziel for an NFL team and it's not all that close.
FTR the only reason I brought up work ethic is because the article that LD linked said that Bill O'Brien is unsure if Manzel "possesses the work ethic and intangibles necessary to be the face of a franchise." To me I interpret that has his off-field antics.
I agree and don't really see the Russell Wilson comparison. I've heard people compare him more to Fran Tarkenton or Doug Flutie which to me is more accurate. I can't really argue against your points about Manzel their all logical. I guess I'm bias and really want Manzel as a Texan. High risk high reward I suppose. Bridgewater is the safer pick but I think If Manzel learns how to avoid big hits and continues to work on his mechanics then I think his ceiling is much higher.
You're just too young to grasp how stylin' I really was. All the boys wanted to do me when I was 5. Actually the girls did too. My haircut was confusing.
This is just a question and I dont know the answer either. Hes still a kid. The issues you raise above about sliding and going out of bounds etc... Don't you think these are coachable things at the NFL level? Not every guy (yes even in the SEC) at the college level coming at him is 6'4 280 with NFL sped and at this level it will make for a more compelling reason to step out of bounds or slide. You cant teach the instinct he has. You can coach those items though.
Absolutely. I think what Bill O'Brien is really talking about in those comments that Tejas pointed out is coachability. Certain players are just not easy to coach. Mark Sanchez was like that, and it wasn't attitude or effort. Some guys can repeat your direction verbatim, understand it and still just not take to it because it feels unnatural. How likely is Manziel to change the way he plays the game in order to fit a mold that a coach has predetermined for him?
Those are less "he's a little shit" issues and more "is he humble enough to re-build his entire football foundation from the ground up (which he may have to do thanks to his weird throwing motion)?" Those are legitimate concerns to me, way moreso than "ZOMG THIS SUPER FAMOUS SUPER TALENTED AWESOME COLLEGE FOOTBALL QB DRINKS BEER AND BANGS CHICKS WHAT A HORROR!!!!!"
Flanzo is going to be wrong about Manziel. I would bet on it.
Like I was wrong about the Jets?
You all should absolutely listen to Sang, since Clemson won their conference and were a national title team and...oh, wait. Sang's never right about sports.
I'd be very interested in your reasoning behind this besides "must disagree with flanzo."
Flanzo is going to be wrong about Manziel. I would bet on it.
Like I was wrong about the Jets?
You all should absolutely listen to Sang, since Clemson won their conference and were a national title team and...oh, wait. Sang's never right about sports.
I'd be very interested in your reasoning behind this besides "must disagree with flanzo."
None of that has anything to do with anything. I just think you're wrong to discount this guy. He's an incredible player and even more than that an incredible competitor. I don't see him failing.
You all should absolutely listen to Sang, since Clemson won their conference and were a national title team and...oh, wait. Sang's never right about sports.
I'd be very interested in your reasoning behind this besides "must disagree with flanzo."
None of that has anything to do with anything. I just think you're wrong to discount this guy. He's an incredible player and even more than that an incredible competitor. I don't see him failing.
Based on what, Sang. What about his play besides how he'll have a 100 rating in "incredibleness" in Madden next year.
He's small, he's wreckless, he doesn't have an above-average arm, he has mechanical flaws in his throwing motion, he scrambles too soon, he doesn't slide or avoid hits often enough and he's going to have a rude awakening at the NFL level, imo.
He also does quite a few things well (open-field running, field vision, ability to extend plays, good deep ball, good at throwing on the run), but I don't see how he has elongated success unless he completely changes his playing style, becomes Steve Young and isn't asked to throw it 35 times a game as a rookie. Depending on where he goes, that probably is what will be asked of him.
I"m not just blindly hating the guy, I actually like him a lot and think it's hilarious how little of a shit he gives about public opinion. I just happen to think he's going to be another example of a guy who people will end up talking about "what could have been" if he was 3 inches taller and less of a runner.
None of that has anything to do with anything. I just think you're wrong to discount this guy. He's an incredible player and even more than that an incredible competitor. I don't see him failing.
Based on what, Sang. What about his play besides how he'll have a 100 rating in "incredibleness" in Madden next year.
He's small, he's wreckless, he doesn't have an above-average arm, he has mechanical flaws in his throwing motion, he scrambles too soon, he doesn't slide or avoid hits often enough and he's going to have a rude awakening at the NFL level, imo.
He also does quite a few things well (open-field running, field vision, ability to extend plays, good deep ball, good at throwing on the run), but I don't see how he has elongated success unless he completely changes his playing style, becomes Steve Young and isn't asked to throw it 35 times a game as a rookie. Depending on where he goes, that probably is what will be asked of him.
I"m not just blindly hating the guy, I actually like him a lot and think it's hilarious how little of a shit he gives about public opinion. I just happen to think he's going to be another example of a guy who people will end up talking about "what could have been" if he was 3 inches taller and less of a runner.
You pointed out the things he's good at, you know as well I or anyone else what he can do. I think you're just undervaluing it and focusing more than on what you think he can't do. Sure he has some parts of his game that he'll have to work on. I think you're underestimating the drive and the will to win and the work ethic that he has. Since there have been some comparisons to Wilson, I think you're forgetting that he had tons of doubters saying a lot of the same things that you're saying now.
It really sounds like you're just substituting Manziel in for Tebow with the way you're talking about him. So you honestly think his will to win sets him apart for Teddy Bridgewater's will to win? You think that he physically wants to win football games more than Teddy Bridgewater?
It really sounds like you're just substituting Manziel in for Tebow with the way you're talking about him. So you honestly think his will to win sets him apart for Teddy Bridgewater's will to win? You think that he physically wants to win football games more than Teddy Bridgewater?
No, I think he's flat out better than Bridgewater. But that will is a part of what makes him a great player.
Post by Longtime and Frequent Poster on Feb 5, 2014 21:20:35 GMT -5
Please list ONE tangible thing about Manziel that makes you think he's better than Bridgewater. Just one. I don't even care what it is because I don't know shit about Manziel's game, really.
Please list ONE tangible thing about Manziel that makes you think he's better than Bridgewater. Just one. I don't even care what it is because I don't know shit about Manziel's game, really.
Everything? The only advantage Bridgewater may have is standing in the pocket.