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Or, it could turn into a sort of Jimmy Darmody relationship. Like if Eli gets killed then Nucky takes him under his wing and he starts working for his gangster Uncle.
Would make sense with him going out of the way to help Nucky and the compliments Nucky paid him.
Or, it could turn into a sort of Jimmy Darmody relationship. Like if Eli gets killed then Nucky takes him under his wing and he starts working for his gangster Uncle.
Would make sense with him going out of the way to help Nucky and the compliments Nucky paid him.
I think Gyp dies by the hand of someone we'd perceive as weaker. His entire character has been built around his status as, well, a bully. He bullies people that are scared of him, and it'd be fitting if his character fell at the hands of someone that he either a) bullied himself, b) is close to someone Gyp bullied, or c) just someone we'd perceive as "weak," but is no longer weak with a gun in their hand.
That's also a running theme I've kind of picked up on - the discrepancy between internal strength and strength created out of power and weapons.
Examples:
Chaulky is a strong person. Gun or no gun, he's not dropping to his knees and begging you for his life. His strength is his own, he doesn't need to supplement it with anything else to keep it his own.
Nucky is not a strong person. His strength is derived from being the boss and knowing he will always have guys fighting for him. The complete and total panic he was experiencing (visibly) during the last episode was staggering, to be honest.
Consider how Nucky acted for much of that episode: jumpy, nervous, frightened. Chaulky went face-to-face with the man on a war path and didn't even blink. Had it been Nuck in that situation (at least Buschemi's version of him), he would've blinked I feel like.
And I also don't think Nucky was like this early in the show. He was that big-balls-having bad-ass mawf*cka that Chaulky is. It's kind of interesting, but if you go back to the early episodes (I watch them from time to time to see my boy Jimmy) Nuck has a very different attitude. When he has a plan, when he has men and power and money, when he has everything in place there isn't a more cocksure person on the planet. But when things start to be shaken up, Nucky becomes shaken up himself. Conversely, if you took everything away from Chaulky I get the sense he'd be the same person.
Also, after Sunday, I'm referring to him as Chaulky Little because that was one baddddd Omar-esque standoff.
Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 28, 2012 14:17:06 GMT -5
To go further with your theme, Chalky is very sure of himself in the gangster world as you mentioned, but he seems downright uncomfortable in his own home especially with his wife being almost patronizing to him in that dinner scene earlier this season.
Consider how Nucky acted for much of that episode: jumpy, nervous, frightened. Chaulky went face-to-face with the man on a war path and didn't even blink. Had it been Nuck in that situation (at least Buschemi's version of him), he would've blinked I feel like.
Edit: I see you addressed parts of this in your next paragraph...so sorry if it's redundant.
Yea but Gyp was on a war path heading to Nucky. Chalky knows he has no beef with Gyp (at the moment anyway). Also, Nucky only had one person he could really trust. I imagine without all them extra guys and guns the situation would maybe be a little different. I'm not saying Chalky would be as scared as Nucky was....but there's a big difference between their situations.
I do agree, though, that Chalky has strength and conviction while Nucky's strength comes from the power he was able to take by using his wits. He's not physically strong (though he does have some fight in him) and doesn't seem to have a great handle on his personal relationships but I'm hoping this season changes that. The look on Nucky's face as he realized that he didn't know Chalky's phone number or how he knew NOTHING about the man who served him for so long really was awesome. That realization that he's alone because of the way he acts.
Consider how Nucky acted for much of that episode: jumpy, nervous, frightened. Chaulky went face-to-face with the man on a war path and didn't even blink. Had it been Nuck in that situation (at least Buschemi's version of him), he would've blinked I feel like.
Edit: I see you addressed parts of this in your next paragraph...so sorry if it's redundant.
Yea but Gyp was on a war path heading to Nucky. Chalky knows he has no beef with Gyp (at the moment anyway). Also, Nucky only had one person he could really trust. I imagine without all them extra guys and guns the situation would maybe be a little different. I'm not saying Chalky would be as scared as Nucky was....but there's a big difference between their situations.
I do agree, though, that Chalky has strength and conviction while Nucky's strength comes from the power he was able to take by using his wits. He's not physically strong (though he does have some fight in him) and doesn't seem to have a great handle on his personal relationships but I'm hoping this season changes that. The look on Nucky's face as he realized that he didn't know Chalky's phone number or how he knew NOTHING about the man who served him for so long really was awesome. That realization that he's alone because of the way he acts.
Obviously the situations are different, but it was obvious Gyp didn't believe or trust Chaulky, still sees him as one of Nuck's lackies and I got the very distinct impression his "I'll leave you alone" offer was complete and utter BS in order to get to Nucky.
Chaulky likely knows guns points at/looking for Nucky are going to eventually be his problem. He thrives in the underworld and you don't do that by a) trusting people at face value, and b) selling people out to the highest bidder. Chaulky held strong up against extreme pressure, and something I doubt people would point to (but I will, naturally) is that none of his guys sold Nucky out. That means, to me at least, that Chaulky's word is unquestioned law.
When in that element, he's unshakable (which Dave alluded to already). Nucky is clearly shakable if you give him enough of a jolt be it by violence, screwing with his money/business, etc.
Your last point is exactly what I was thinking of (or one of the instances, at least) that gave me this overwhelming feeling that Nucky is a scared little kid. It's not the same as a bully get socked in the mouth and cowering, Nuck was never a bully to me, just a powerful man who didn't take sh*t. So when he had all his power structure taken from him he realized just how helpless he is without it.
FWIW, I think Nuck is only alive because of his survival instinct and the fact he's not a stone-cold badass. If he was, he makes his Custard last stand and gets blown away. In other words, if Chaulky was in Nuck's shoes and forced to run I am pretty sure he stands, fights, and dies.
Post by itrainmonkeys on Nov 28, 2012 15:57:24 GMT -5
Chalky's guys didn't sell out Nucky but they were definitely thinking about it when hanging around that fire. Probably not seriously....more like "If I won the lotto I'd do this..." type of thing. But I could definitely see somebody going to Gyp to try and claim the money because as Chalky points out, he doesn't trust anyone.
Still....I doubt it really leads to that. I think Nucky just takes the fight to Gyp as opposed to Gyp being tipped off
I know what you mean, Flanz. Without re-stating your points too much in my own way, I'll just say that this (like Game of Thrones) has always been a show about the politics of power. There have been many, many, many characters in the show (Jimmy Darmody and Richard Harrow come to mind in addition to Chalky and even Gyp) that have the strong will and strength in general it takes to be great soldiers, but don't have the cunning and trickery it takes to be leaders (political or otherwise). I think as Lucky's and Capone's characters progress, we'll see how they develop the smarts and foresight they'll need to rise to and stay at the top. Lucky has Lansky to balance out his temper with rationality, but I think Capone is the one we'll really see develop over the course of the series, similar to the way Carver developed in The Wire.
As far as who dies, obviously Gyp is going down and there's a 99% chance that either Gillian or Richard (or both) will die. I also see Margaret's fate being around 50/50 (maybe more like 60/40) headed into the finale. I'd say Chalky is 50/50 too, but that's only because of something that's in the preview (so I won't spoil that). I would not be surprised at this point to see Eli or his son bite the bullet, too, but not both.
Also, a few fine points for us to clarify: I agree with ITM, it seemed like Chalky's guys were definitely considering selling Nucky out, I thought that what was why Nucky had Chalky take him away to where Eli's son works, because he (and Chalky) were concerned that one of Chalky's men would sell him out.
Second, flanzo: are you sure Gyp didn't believe Chalky? I got the sense he was trying to start things off at least sort of on the right foot with Chalky (until he screws him over later, once he's sure Nucky is dead). If he didn't believe what Chalky said, wouldn't he go into that safe house anyway to search for Nucky? I'll admit I was a little confused by that part of the scene, though; I was really surprised Gyp just took Nucky's word for it and walked away. Maybe he didn't want a shootout right then and there with Chalky's boys?
Post by itrainmonkeys on Nov 28, 2012 16:07:24 GMT -5
I'm guessing Chalky lives only because the storyline of him renovating and running a new club where Babette's used to be sounds like a lot of fun AND a good way to keep him relevant in the show.
If he didn't believe what Chalky said, wouldn't he go into that safe house anyway to search for Nucky?
I just thought that it was the same thing you came up with:
Maybe he didn't want a shootout right then and there with Chalky's boys?
What's the point in getting in a huge firefight with people right in front of you when you're trying to take over the entire city/town? He wants Nucky dead...totally. But if he gets killed in the process the whole thing is for nothing.
That whole scene was showing both guys measuring the other one. Seeing how tough and how nice they need to be to each other. Gyp is likely trying to find out for certain if Nucky is definitely there but also doesn't need to create problems if there's no reason for them.
I believe he thinks Nucky is there somewhere though, otherwise he wouldn't have made the loud proclamation to everyone about the price on Nucky's head.
I'm guessing Chalky lives only because the storyline of him renovating and running a new club where Babette's used to be sounds like a lot of fun AND a good way to keep him relevant in the show.
I agree, but I have a theory about this based largely on something shown in the episode 12 preview (ep. 12 preview spoilers):
In the preview for episode 12, Rothstein offers Nucky "a way out" of his war in exchange for something else that is totally unclear right now. I have no idea what that could be, so I'm wondering if Rothstein wants the location where Babbette's used to be so he can build a casino. This would obviously leave Nucky with a choice regarding Chalky.
It's a stretch, though, since AR clearly hates New Jersey. But I have no idea what else Rothstein could possibly want from Nucky.
Rothstein is definitely on the phone and definitely offers somebody "a way out" but there's no way to tell who he is talking to and if it has to do with the war in NJ.
I totally thought that the preview wants us to believe that but in reality Rothstein is on the phone with Lucky Luciano and is going to help bail him out of jail. Lucky gets locked up, asks for help from Rothstein who makes Lucky promise/swear to end business with Joe Masseria.
The stuff involving Lucky/Meyer in the preview is all about the heroin deal stuff and finding out who they were working with.
If I missed something in the preview that points to Rothstein definitely talking to Nucky let me know....it's possible.
Lucky and Lansky are definitely in the same room with Masseria in a few of the shots in the preview. I wonder how that situation will shake out next week. Obviously, Lucky and Lansky will outlive Masseria and Gyp.
EDIT: Actually, maybe that's how Gyp and Masseria die. Maybe AR offers to bail Lucky out of prison if he offs Gyp and Masseria. I see that as pretty unlikely, though. A) that'd be anticlimactic, and I don't totally see why AR would be itching to have Masseria and Gyp killed (he more or less just wants to stay out of it and let it shake out how it will, it seems). Although, Gyp did try to have him murdered...
I definitely caught a shot of one of the cops roughing Lucky and saying "Who's your partner?" and then there's a scene that shows Lucky in a nice room and someone asks "Who backed the money" (or something about "who gave the money") so I think that we'll see Lucky have to fess up to AR that he and Meyer made the deal with Masseria.
Yeah, I saw that scene ITM, but there was definitely another scene where Lucky and Lansky were in the same room with Masseria and possibly Gyp. Also, see my edit inside the spoiler tag above. Another possible (albeit unlikely) death scenario for Gyp.
Also, a few fine points for us to clarify: I agree with ITM, it seemed like Chalky's guys were definitely considering selling Nucky out, I thought that what was why Nucky had Chalky take him away to where Eli's son works, because he (and Chalky) were concerned that one of Chalky's men would sell him out.
Second, flanzo: are you sure Gyp didn't believe Chalky? I got the sense he was trying to start things off at least sort of on the right foot with Chalky (until he screws him over later, once he's sure Nucky is dead). If he didn't believe what Chalky said, wouldn't he go into that safe house anyway to search for Nucky? I'll admit I was a little confused by that part of the scene, though; I was really surprised Gyp just took Nucky's word for it and walked away. Maybe he didn't want a shootout right then and there with Chalky's boys?
I'm about 95% certain that Gyp didn't believe Chaulky, but open-air bloodbaths are bad for business. Gyp is insane, but also somewhat cunning when it comes to killing people, like a brutal savant or something.
He knew the odds were against him being on Chaulky's turf with about a dozen shotguns pointed at his crew. That's a lose-lose. You either win the skirmish and start a war with that crew or you get killed. Gyp has waited long enough for Nuck, I saw that as him basically saying he'd keep] waiting. He also was probably hoping the $25K thing would cause someone to immediately dime Nucky out.
OK that makes sense, but Chalky doesn't have any more men than the ones that are at that safehouse; wouldn't Gyp just return with his (Masseria's) massive army and light the place up if he really thinks Chalky is lying and that Nucky is there? And wouldn't he have someone staking out the place that would probably see Nucky when Chalky sneaks him out to the wagon?
OK that makes sense, but Chalky doesn't have any more men than the ones that are at that safehouse; wouldn't Gyp just return with his (Masseria's) massive army and light the place up if he really thinks Chalky is lying and that Nucky is there? And wouldn't he have someone staking out the place that would probably see Nucky when Chalky sneaks him out to the wagon?
Chaulky's "men" stretch beyond just the guys holding shotguns. Every black person in the greater AC area has ties to Chaulky. He fights for them, so they all fight for him. I think you're underestimating how much power Chaulky would have in an all-out war.
The stakeout was the only wrench I don't have an answer for. Maybe that will soon be answered? There's an episode left so if Gyp did have someone follow Nuck, it'd still be too soon for his men to have gotten there by the time Eli/Chaulky's people got there, right? I dunno, I've been trying to think my way around that one, but so far have been unsuccessful.
As far as the "go get Masseria's army" comment...he doesn't have Masseria's army, remember? I honestly wouldn't even be surprised if Masseria blames Nucky's coming after him on Gyp because he told him this was a stupid war and it was "his" (meaning Gyp's) war. I realize Nuck took a shot at the king, but I think Masseria's loyalty to Gyp only exists as long as Gyp isn't causing waves for him.
Therefore, shocker, Masseria kills Gyp, then comes after Nuck who now has the manpower he needs, Nuck's army kills Masseria, Luciano steps in. Bingo, bango, bongo....next season! (Just kidding, I'm leaving work so I can't completely finish my thought here).
It's unclear at this point whether or not Gyp has Masseria's army or how much of it he has. Gyp seemed to gain Masseria's army after their conversation at the diner, but then their exchange on the beach an episode or two later made it seem like Masseria might not be giving him access to his entire army. What is clear is that Masseria is very, very hesitant about this war and not very loyal to Gyp (like you said, his loyalty to Gyp is contingent on Gyp not causing too many problems for him, which he very clearly has). So, I wouldn't be surprised either if Masseria ends up turning on Gyp himself.
Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 28, 2012 17:37:12 GMT -5
Yeah, Chalky has a kind of power similar to Tyler Durden in Fight Club. Like Flanzo said, every black person in the city follows Chalky. They only follow Nucky because Chalky does. They work all the menial service jobs in the city. Need someone dead? Poison a meal. One of Chalky's people will serve it.
Also, I think it's funny/noteworthy that basically none of the death scenarios we've come up with for Gyp feature Nucky shooting Gyp himself. If it comes down to a showdown, I think Gyp would pretty easily get the best of Nuck (and obviously that won't happen). Nucky would have to do something sneaky/underhanded to win in a mano-a-mano with Gyp.
Also, I think it's funny/noteworthy that basically none of the death scenarios we've come up with for Gyp feature Nucky shooting Gyp himself. If it comes down to a showdown, I think Gyp would pretty easily get the best of Nuck (and obviously that won't happen). Nucky would have to do something sneaky/underhanded to win in a mano-a-mano with Gyp.
Eh, a gun is all it takes. Nuck has a quicker hand than Gyp, and he wins.
Yeah, I mean I knew Tonino would be involved but that was as close as I got.
"Tommy, close your eyes" might've been the best and most well-delivered line in the entirety of the series. I flipped the f*ck out when he said that. Not only was it just an epically badass thing to say, it's indicative of Richard's whole motivation in his relationship with Tommy, wanting to protect him and shield him from the violent horrors that he himself is haunted by. And then Tommy going up and hugging him...Richard's scenes were definitely the highlight of this excellent (if a little bit unsurprising) finale.
I loved how it turned out Nucky had a plan in place for a while, but just needed the time & manpower to execute it.
Very interested to see how things go next season, they set us up for quite a bit. Lot of moving parts in different levels of the show (from street-level muscle in Van Alden to the head of the goddang treasury of the United States) that are all great.
Patiently waiting for Dave's long rambling rant on this episode, it should be a doozy.
Post by wannaberoo'ing on Dec 3, 2012 8:02:32 GMT -5
No major surprises! I guess that was the surprise. Interesting finale to say the least.
I loved it. Richard is the man.
Nucky and Margaret's relationship pains me. I wish they could find a way back to one another. I had a feeling Nucky would do what he did (trying to be vague for those who didn't see it all yet, I know there is a spoiler thingie) when it came to her- although he can't actually be this person, he wants to be a good husband/father deep inside.
Good call, karosko. You nailed it again- except she will be ok.
