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I think it's tough to expect an artist to play 60 shows at ticket price X when they can play 20 at ticket price 3X and make the same amount. We'd all like to think there's a selflessness to this, that artists want more fans to see them live, to outmaneuver the evil concert promoters, etc. But if someone told you you could work 1/3 as much for the same money, would you not take that immediately?
Ya baby, it’s just capitalism! Who are we to criticize the invisible hand? If you can’t afford more than one concert a year just stop being poor.
Post by Delicious Meatball Sub on Sept 6, 2023 14:22:31 GMT -5
Also I’d love to see some numbers about whether increases in gross concert revenue are leading to a corresponding increase in artist revenue, or if it’s mostly just padding promoters profits. I have suspicions ….
Also I’d love to see some numbers about whether increases in gross concert revenue are leading to a corresponding increase in artist revenue, or if it’s mostly just padding promoters profits. I have suspicions ….
Would that change your feelings about ticket pricing? If tickets to a show were $250 but went 100% to the artist vs Ticketmaster getting a cut. It's still a lot to pay for a show.
Serious question. Do you think artists say to themselves, "I'm probably never going to be as famous or in demand as I am right now, let's charge as much as people will pay for the shows this tour"? Similar to how athletes try to sign for as high a contract as possible due to risk of a short career.
I'm playing devil's advocate by the way. Like anyone here, I'd rather be able to see my favorite artists in a way that seems more affordable. And Ticketmaster sucks in all directions.
Also I’d love to see some numbers about whether increases in gross concert revenue are leading to a corresponding increase in artist revenue, or if it’s mostly just padding promoters profits. I have suspicions ….
Would that change your feelings about ticket pricing? If tickets to a show were $250 but went 100% to the artist vs Ticketmaster getting a cut. It's still a lot to pay for a show.
Serious question. Do you think artists say to themselves, "I'm probably never going to be as famous or in demand as I am right now, let's charge as much as people will pay for the shows this tour"? Similar to how athletes try to sign for as high a contract as possible due to risk of a short career.
I'm playing devil's advocate by the way. Like anyone here, I'd rather be able to see my favorite artists in a way that seems more affordable. And Ticketmaster sucks in all directions.
Theres some acts you can see that their label/management attempt the strike when the iron is hot type thing. Like why did Lorde do Arenas and lots of them didnt sell out even with strong support acts. Peso Pluma literally cancelled a bunch of dates and then swapped out to large venues and higher price points. Sam Smith went from 400 cap clubs to arenas in under a year off one album.
I think it's tough to expect an artist to play 60 shows at ticket price X when they can play 20 at ticket price 3X and make the same amount. We'd all like to think there's a selflessness to this, that artists want more fans to see them live, to outmaneuver the evil concert promoters, etc. But if someone told you you could work 1/3 as much for the same money, would you not take that immediately?
I mean the demand for Zach kind of shows that he probably shouldve just done stadiums in every market but it mightve not been feasible with his routing and such. And there was one way to avoid platinum and dynamic which was to have booked baseball stadiums. Mlb.com doesnt have that feature and the only way to raise rices is selling like Mastercard premium tickets or something like that which I saw for Elton John. You still can limit things at least. I remember my friends who got springsteen tickets for wrigley were so glad that they couldnt get gouged cause mlb doesnt do it.
Also I’d love to see some numbers about whether increases in gross concert revenue are leading to a corresponding increase in artist revenue, or if it’s mostly just padding promoters profits. I have suspicions ….
Would that change your feelings about ticket pricing? If tickets to a show were $250 but went 100% to the artist vs Ticketmaster getting a cut. It's still a lot to pay for a show.
Serious question. Do you think artists say to themselves, "I'm probably never going to be as famous or in demand as I am right now, let's charge as much as people will pay for the shows this tour"? Similar to how athletes try to sign for as high a contract as possible due to risk of a short career.
I'm playing devil's advocate by the way. Like anyone here, I'd rather be able to see my favorite artists in a way that seems more affordable. And Ticketmaster sucks in all directions.
It absolutely would change my opinion if the money was going to the artist rather than rewarding LiveNation and GoldenVoice for buying up a bunch of venues and controlling the market. At some point something can still be too much money but I’m happy to pay a crazy price to see Neil Young play an indie venue knowing when he dies it’s all going to Bridge School or whatever.
Jeff Rosenstock posted an interesting thing on Labor Day talking about how corporate venues take a ~20% cut of his merch sales. For nothing! Just for giving him the right to sell the stuff he/his team designed and sold and lugged around on tour themselves. So his point was “I’m sorry but unless you live in one of the few venues that aren’t corporate owned we have to charge a little more for a tshirt.”
I knew this was a thing at the arena level but had no idea it went all the way down to the Jeff Rosenstocks of the world. That dude ain’t getting rich of touring and is getting nickled and dimed at every turn and we’re all out here blaming artists for the big prices when they’re probably not even seeing much benefit from it.
Also I’d love to see some numbers about whether increases in gross concert revenue are leading to a corresponding increase in artist revenue, or if it’s mostly just padding promoters profits. I have suspicions ….
well I would guess Taylor negotiated a very good deal for her self, and she singlehandedly represents a massive amount of the increase in gross concert revenue, so on the whole this is probably not the correct suspicion. for the median artist however, I dont think gross concert revenue is rising nor do I think they are getting a higher % of profit.
Would that change your feelings about ticket pricing? If tickets to a show were $250 but went 100% to the artist vs Ticketmaster getting a cut. It's still a lot to pay for a show.
Serious question. Do you think artists say to themselves, "I'm probably never going to be as famous or in demand as I am right now, let's charge as much as people will pay for the shows this tour"? Similar to how athletes try to sign for as high a contract as possible due to risk of a short career.
I'm playing devil's advocate by the way. Like anyone here, I'd rather be able to see my favorite artists in a way that seems more affordable. And Ticketmaster sucks in all directions.
It absolutely would change my opinion if the money was going to the artist rather than rewarding LiveNation and GoldenVoice for buying up a bunch of venues and controlling the market. At some point something can still be too much money but I’m happy to pay a crazy price to see Neil Young play an indie venue knowing when he dies it’s all going to Bridge School or whatever.
Jeff Rosenstock posted an interesting thing on Labor Day talking about how corporate venues take a ~20% cut of his merch sales. For nothing! Just for giving him the right to sell the stuff he/his team designed and sold and lugged around on tour themselves. So his point was “I’m sorry but unless you live in one of the few venues that aren’t corporate owned we have to charge a little more for a tshirt.”
I knew this was a thing at the arena level but had no idea it went all the way down to the Jeff Rosenstocks of the world. That dude ain’t getting rich of touring and is getting nickled and dimed at every turn and we’re all out here blaming artists for the big prices when they’re probably not even seeing much benefit from it.
Theres a whole alliance that formed in the Uk when it comes to venues which dont take merch cuts and such. So bands can book tours around the country from a group of places that dont take any merch. The Charlatans had that issue not too long ago and they decided to just sell their merch outside the venue cause they didnt agree with the percentage.
The one interesting thing about the Rosenstock post is that he showed you even some indie venues do that type of thing and you would never think about it. 9:30 Club in Dc forces artists to use the venues staff to sell merch instead of the tour merch people. Same goes for Salt Shed in Chicago and theres probably others that do it.
Also I’d love to see some numbers about whether increases in gross concert revenue are leading to a corresponding increase in artist revenue, or if it’s mostly just padding promoters profits. I have suspicions ….
well I would guess Taylor negotiated a very good deal for her self, and she singlehandedly represents a massive amount of the increase in gross concert revenue, so on the whole this is probably not the correct suspicion. for the median artist however, I dont think gross concert revenue is rising nor do I think they are getting a higher % of profit.
The top 20 tours in 2019 grossed 2.5 trillion which increased to 3.2 trillion in 2022. LiveNation had record high revenue in Q1 2023. Don’t really have time to sit here and crunch more numbers but definitely seems like more than just a Taylor Swift thing to me.
Post by magicdance81 on Sept 6, 2023 15:10:14 GMT -5
I agree, if the artist is getting all the $, then at least I can make an informed value judgement about how much I can/will pay to see them. And can I add that I loathe the immediate hyperinflated resale market for every show. Mostly fake, perpetrated by promoters and venues, etc. Just tell me how much you're charging for a ticket and not pretend everything is a sellout and tickets are suddenly 200% as much.
The Rosenstock thing is bonkers to me. I'm either naive, or just not an evil corporation. They should all setup their merch tables just outside the venue property limits.
The Cure and Taylor charged fair prices without platinum nor "dynamic" bullshit
But how much money ( taylor especially ) did they lose revenue wise due to resale. I wish stubhub and all them released the figures on what they got via secondary for Eras. They prob got like a third if every date i bet.
The Cure and Taylor charged fair prices without platinum nor "dynamic" bullshit
But how much money ( taylor especially ) did they lose revenue wise due to resale. I wish stubhub and all them released the figures on what they got via secondary for Eras. They prob got like a third if every date i bet.
Who cares? Both artists still had their highest grossing tours of all time and their fans who were able to purchase tickets were not price gouged.
If a tour has expensive tickets it's because the artist wants the ticket to be expensive.
An artist asking for fair compensation for a show is clearly part of the ticket cost. If you want $250 per ticket just say that and have it be the price. Don't pretend tickets are $50, declare a sellout, then have thousands of tickets suddenly available for $250 on Ticketmaster Verified or StubHub. Be transparent. Just gouge me up front.
If a tour has expensive tickets it's because the artist wants the ticket to be expensive.
An artist asking for fair compensation for a show is clearly part of the ticket cost. If you want $250 per ticket just say that and have it be the price. Don't pretend tickets are $50, declare a sellout, then have thousands of tickets suddenly available for $250 on Ticketmaster Verified or StubHub. Be transparent. Just gouge me up front.
Or just refuse be gouged. We go to tons of shows but we have a limit. If I think your tickets are too expensive we just don’t go.
An artist asking for fair compensation for a show is clearly part of the ticket cost. If you want $250 per ticket just say that and have it be the price. Don't pretend tickets are $50, declare a sellout, then have thousands of tickets suddenly available for $250 on Ticketmaster Verified or StubHub. Be transparent. Just gouge me up front.
Or just refuse be gouged. We go to tons of shows but we have a limit. If I think your tickets are too expensive we just don’t go.
Agreed 1000%. And it happens. Artists overestimate their appeal and tours get cancelled.
Post by llamaoftime183 on Sept 6, 2023 16:26:15 GMT -5
I saw both Zach and The Cure back in May at the same venue and both I bought the most expensive tier tickets, and Zach was $150 after fees and The Cure was about $165. I know those were "fair" prices and both sold out instantly so they were cheaper than demand, but those are also still two of the higher prices I've ever paid for non-festival concerts so it's wild to me that was the discount price. I mean I was happy with that price in the end, I thought both shows were incredible and I had fantastic spots at both, but I'm still not sure I could justify it if I had paid $300+ for either. Maybe my brain hasn't adjusted to inflation or something but that's just so much money for what's a 3-4 hour experience. Not to mention costs to get to the venue, park or uber for arena shows, and that drinks inside cost nearly $20 now
But how much money ( taylor especially ) did they lose revenue wise due to resale. I wish stubhub and all them released the figures on what they got via secondary for Eras. They prob got like a third if every date i bet.
Who cares? Both artists still had their highest grossing tours of all time and their fans who were able to purchase tickets were not price gouged.
It would still be interesting to see what the secondary market generated because of the demand. I mean the face value exchange for the cure shows had its issues because there were tickets popping up for $500 each cause TM didnt turn off dynamic pricing for that aspect of its sales.
Pearl Jam literally is trying play both sides of that with the "face value"exchange but the seats are being marked up. So wtf is supposed to happen if the band is appearing to be on the side of their fans when this shit is happening.
Or just refuse be gouged. We go to tons of shows but we have a limit. If I think your tickets are too expensive we just don’t go.
Agreed 1000%. And it happens. Artists overestimate their appeal and tours get cancelled.
Thats what happened with Swedish House Mafia last year. They booked a Stadium and nobody bought tix cause it was overpriced. Like floor was $400 and no support acts had been announced. People didnt wanna fork over that money when they could buy a ticket to Ultra for the same and get 20 more artists to go see. Then they cancelled a bunch of dates because of it.
Would that change your feelings about ticket pricing? If tickets to a show were $250 but went 100% to the artist vs Ticketmaster getting a cut. It's still a lot to pay for a show.
Serious question. Do you think artists say to themselves, "I'm probably never going to be as famous or in demand as I am right now, let's charge as much as people will pay for the shows this tour"? Similar to how athletes try to sign for as high a contract as possible due to risk of a short career.
I'm playing devil's advocate by the way. Like anyone here, I'd rather be able to see my favorite artists in a way that seems more affordable. And Ticketmaster sucks in all directions.
It absolutely would change my opinion if the money was going to the artist rather than rewarding LiveNation and GoldenVoice for buying up a bunch of venues and controlling the market. At some point something can still be too much money but I’m happy to pay a crazy price to see Neil Young play an indie venue knowing when he dies it’s all going to Bridge School or whatever.
Jeff Rosenstock posted an interesting thing on Labor Day talking about how corporate venues take a ~20% cut of his merch sales. For nothing! Just for giving him the right to sell the stuff he/his team designed and sold and lugged around on tour themselves. So his point was “I’m sorry but unless you live in one of the few venues that aren’t corporate owned we have to charge a little more for a tshirt.”
I knew this was a thing at the arena level but had no idea it went all the way down to the Jeff Rosenstocks of the world. That dude ain’t getting rich of touring and is getting nickled and dimed at every turn and we’re all out here blaming artists for the big prices when they’re probably not even seeing much benefit from it.
From an indie promoter perspective, it goes all the way down to $20 shows. I've booked hundreds of shows over the last 10 years and we've always had the option to take a cut of merch so it's really not a new thing. We've declined every time but have considered it when we knew we were going to lose our ass on a show. Also, the logistics of paying for our own merch person is just too much of a hassle to deal with.
Also, on Jeff's post, he talked about taking a cut of the bar from the people he brought in which I found funny because there's been plenty of times we've needed to take something like 10% of the bar sales just to pay the guarantee of the touring package. Resound Productions (aka Transmission Productions) in Texas for example arranges bookings at venues by taking a 10-20% cut of bar sales. That money does go back to the headliners. It's really tough for independent promoters out there right now when you have AEG/LN breathing down your neck with their huge capital.
Post by paintedhighway on Sept 6, 2023 20:40:03 GMT -5
September Springsteen dates postponed, and a lot of speculation in the fan community that all of the remaining 2023 dates will be bumped to next year. Very bummed--already postponed Columbus once, but there's no Springsteen show without Springsteen and I hope he gets better quickly.
Same here. At least i didnt drive 3 hours snd check into hotel again this time around though. Looks like the wait will be well into 2024 though as last month’s philadelphia postponement has been rescheduled as late august next year.
September Springsteen dates postponed, and a lot of speculation in the fan community that all of the remaining 2023 dates will be bumped to next year. Very bummed--already postponed Columbus once, but there's no Springsteen show without Springsteen and I hope he gets better quickly.
September Springsteen dates postponed, and a lot of speculation in the fan community that all of the remaining 2023 dates will be bumped to next year. Very bummed--already postponed Columbus once, but there's no Springsteen show without Springsteen and I hope he gets better quickly.
Upcoming Shows: 10/18 - Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit & Iris DeMent @ Ryman Auditorium 11/8 - Goose @ The Andrew J. Brady Center 11/13 - Bobby Weir & Wolf Bros w/ The Wolfpack & The Cincinnati Pops Orchestra @ Cincinnati Music Hall 2/14 - Alan Walker @ The Fillmore Detroit 4/15 - Ben Folds w/ The Cincinnati Pops Orchestra @ Cincinnati Music Hall
Post by thepiratepenguin on Sept 8, 2023 11:44:05 GMT -5
Never seen Keane (somehow Snow Patrol weren't too uncool for me back in the day but Keane were) and I'm not buying a ticket a full year in advance for a show that might not even sell out in that amount of time, but there's a nostalgic part of me thinking "Oh yeah, I'd totally go to that."
Post by llamaoftime183 on Sept 8, 2023 14:58:34 GMT -5
As we're starting to see some 2024 dates come out, got into discussion with friends, what bands that haven't been pretty continuously touring the past two years might be touring next year? Only one I really got is Vampire Weekend. Radiohead would be cool too but sounds like we might get another Smile album before that happens. They are currently touring this year but did hear someone say Pearl Jam may do a bigger than usual tour next year. New Blur album has gotten some American radio play and I'd love to see them do some shows here, though I'm not holding my breath.