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the big east had a few interconference games in the tournament. Syracuse-marquette. Uconn-Cincinnati. So that should be taken into account into evaluating their success.
I love how butler over pitt is considered a huge upset. Butler made it to the title game last year.It's a shame that game came down to two awful ref calls. What a terrible case of two calls trying to "equal" each other out because the first call was blown. I hate it when you see it in other sports. Anyways rant over.
I'm gonna show love for my home state for providing the dark horses this tournament. Let's go vcu and Richmond. Keep kicking ass
Last Edit: Mar 21, 2011 10:26:40 GMT -5 by Jury - Back to Top
It's an upset like marquette over xavier was an upset, an upset but not a big deal.Both marquette and butler are very solid tournament teams with good coaches. Just think the hype of biggest upset in tournament, no way. I gotta give that to vcu's absolute whooping over purdue. Or morehead state over Louisville, its a shame terrance hall didn't put up the same show against Richmond.
Last Edit: Mar 21, 2011 11:13:57 GMT -5 by Jury - Back to Top
Final word, even though I enjoy debating this, I don't understand for a second why people give a f*ck how their conference does irrespective of their own team. ... I hate every single team in that conference from November to February and all the way through MSG, why should that change now?
Good points, but you should probably take it up with the guy who started it:
Looking forward to the Big East getting 11 teams in the tournament, and then getting to listen to whiny ACC fans about why their crap teams didn't make it.
As for beating the bag out of the non-conference opponents they faced, Duke, Vandy, and Wisconsin split against BE tourney teams (1-1), while Gonzaga, Kentucky, and Tennessee went 2-1 against BE tourney teams. And now UK is 3-1.
Looking forward to the Big East getting 11 teams in the tournament, and then getting to listen to whiny ACC fans about why their crap teamake it.
As for beating the bag out of the non-conference opponents they faced, Duke, Vandy, and Wisconsin split against BE tourney teams (1-1), while Gonzaga, Kentucky, and Tennessee went 2-1 against BE tourney teams. And now UK is 3-1.
So, you're telling me that all the BC, Virginia Tech, etc. fans who are making noise about the Big East teams losing AREN'T doing exactly what I predicted above?
No, I'm saying that now that the Big East is showing how mediocre it is, you are the one doing what you predicted above.
And you're the one cherry picking by leaving out such telling numbers as WV and St. John's losing three games each to non-tourney teams.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 21, 2011 13:37:08 GMT -5
Juggs, what I'm doing is called talking smack, not forming sound arguments. If you hadn't started it, I wouldn't even be talking about the Big East. I already told you a few times I don't care about it. You give so many people so much shit on this board that I've just been having a good time egging you on. You're a good guy, though, and it's all in good fun.
As far as your arguments go, you're right. I agree with most everything you've been saying. I'll stop trying to bait you and really talk about basketball again if you want.
The Big East is pretty good. They're not top heavy like most conferences, and they have a lot of pretty good teams. At the top they're just about as good as anyone else, though I think Oh St and Kansas are both better than any BE team.
I do think that G'town and Nova should have been left out. Both teams were seeded too high once they did get in, and I would have made their replacements Colorado and St. Mary's, but with more appropriate seeds (10 to 12). I would have also taken out Clemson and put Va. Tech in their place.
And it looks like UT is firing Pearl. There goes that program.
The ACC went 6-9 against OOC tournament opponents.
Again, what happens in the tournament has no reflection on what happened in the regular season. The Big East was inarguably the best/toughest conferences in the regular season, and deserved 10 bids (I don't think Villanova had a claim, personally). The fact that many of the teams flamed out has nothing to do with it, they earned their way in there.
Just to be clear the ACC's tournament teams went 9-9 against OOC tournament opponents, Duke also beat UAB and Princeton, and you failed to count Clemson's win over Wofford. Not that it changes your argument, but still, since we are taking issue will misinformed arguments, its worth speaking up.
Did the Big East deserve to get the majority of teams in this year? Yes. But, in my opinion it has less to do with those teams being dominant and more to do with, typically, strong schools having down years. Baylor, Wake Forest, Maryland, OK State, even Minnesota and Oklahoma, all come to mind. So its just a case of some holes needing to be filled, and the Big East being the best conference from top to bottom, fills the holes. In any other year, the last few Big East schools to get in would've been left out in favor of teams from other power conferences. Again, this isn't to suggest the Big East didn't deserve the bids it got, although Nova should've been in the NIT, its just a fact of other conferences coming up short. But when it comes down to playing the games, the Big East isn't as strong or dominant as the media would suggest, they are just less mediocre in the middle.
Just out of curiosity, what makes you think Kentucky will "handle" Ohio State? OSU has been playing incredibly well lately.
Agreed. OSU has probably been the most dominant team so far, but I think a team with two athletic guards like Kentucky can give them problems. Honestly, it's mostly just a hunch.
I had a similar thought, but the more I think about it I don't know if UK's freshman are going to be able to handle the pressure of the stage, not to mention the offensive onslaught being thrown at them. I'm not sure how the matchups will shake out, but I have a hard time believing Harrelson or Jones will be able to guard Sullinger down low, without help from a double team, at which point Diebler and Lighty become lethal. But often times, such analysis prove futile at this point in the year as most of the time Leno just happens. If UK beats OSU, I think UNC is in the Final Four, but I have a hard time visualizing anyone beating OSU at this point.
And Duke vs. UConn almost always proves to be the best game of the tournament so I hope we are treated to another showdown. The Smith vs. Walker matchup would be one for the ages. Its only fitting that these two teams play for the right to go to the Final Four, and I believe the committee thought about this when making the brackets. Neither will have an easy time getting there though, both Zona and SD State will have huge crowd support in Anaheim, and they aren't shabby teams to begin with.
Kansas appears to have the easiest path to the Final Four, but what does that really mean anyway. Richmond is a solid team and could give them a game, they have been the best team on the floor, by far, in both of their previous games, they are only a surprise based on their seeding. VCU is playing lights out right now, welcome to the big time Shaka Smart. FSU's defense can shut down anyone in the country, they control the paint, if their offense is clicking like it was for the majority of the ND game, they can beat anyone.
I haven't been on the BYU bandwagon all year, but they keep on winning. Butler is more than qualified to make another run. Wisconsin surprised me by gutting out the win over KSU, so who knows how far they can really go. Florida has the right pieces, but has yet to blow me away with a performance. This region is a tossup.
People who can't admit when they're wrong sure do use a lot of words.
You sound like Joe Morgan when someone has just explained to him how OPS is a better stat than batting average.
Wait...so in this scenario, you're the guy advocating sabermetrics? Hahaha...I'm sorry man...that's funny. I mean, I like your predictions of the final four teams. I would go with Ohio State over UNC myself, but I certainly think either UNC or Kentucky has the talent to beat the Buckeyes. But your defense of the Big East getting so many bids and then sucking it up during the weekend hasn't exactly been sabermetric-esque, so it really hasn't merited much dialogue in my opinion.
Look at how good these teams were November and December is not really a valid refute for how bad they looked in March. At best, you can argue the conference just had too many higher seeds. At worse, you can say they probably only deserved 8-9 teams. Which is still really good for the conference. And I don't think anyone is denying that the conference is the most entertaining and deepest to pay attention to during the regular season.
I just tend to think people who watch the NBA and casually watch college basketball (this is how I count myself) all saw this one coming a mile away because of how little top level talent there's been in that conference all year. That's why Chuck, as nonsensical as he can be, has been pretty much dead on for most of the tournament.
Side note: I was surprised by how good Florida looked. If I were a betting man, I would say we might be getting an Ohio State-Florida rematch in the final.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 21, 2011 16:11:26 GMT -5
I'm not so sure UNC even gets to play the UK/OH ST winner. All it will take is one bad game from Barnes, because without him scoring 20 points, UNC can lose to just about anybody. He's been pretty consistent since the light turned on for him mid-season, but relying on a freshman to play at the top of his game like we do has me pretty worried.
I have UConn in my final four, and I still think they're the team to beat in that region. Kemba is one of those rare players that can consistently carry a team for an entire season. How he didn't get BE player of the year is beyond me. Hansbrough is a nice player, but he's no Tyler or Kemba. In a pick up game, I know who I'd choose.
Post by Longtime and Frequent Poster on Mar 21, 2011 16:43:56 GMT -5
You guys are really underrating SDSU, by the way. The fact that the game is in Anaheim won't help UConn's chances either. Not saying that SDSU WILL win, but it will probably be an extremely close game either way.
Kemba Walker didn't win POY in the Big East cause he shot under 41% in Big East play (including the conference tourney.) Everyone loves to sweat the guy's nuts, but in games where he hit game winning shots this year he was:
7-26 before the game winner @texas 5-17 before the game winner against Villanova 7-21 before the game winner against Pitt in the conference tourney.
(Side note: Pretty sure there was more than these three, but all I can remember off the top of my head)
You know how many guys in the country could average 23 points a game if they shot 18-20 times a game? Quite a few. Not saying he's not undeniably talented, just overrated.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 21, 2011 19:36:20 GMT -5
Alright, so that last comment was a cheap shot.
Why do you think SD ST is being underrated, glennron? They played four decent games all year, and lost half of them. I'm counting St. Mary's, Zaga, and the first two BYU games because the third game with BYU was BYU's second game without Davies, and I think they were still in disarray then. They look like they've figured out how to play without him since then, and looking at the way SD ST played Temple, I think BYU would win for the third time if they had a rematch.
Post by Mista Don't Play on Mar 21, 2011 21:46:18 GMT -5
I haven't had many opportunities to watch SDSU play this year, so I can't fairly analyze their chances. I do think the crowd will have an impact on the game, it may be enough to give them the win. But I'm still picking UConn. I wouldn't say they are any less worthy because of taking 2 OTs to beat Temple. They are no powerhouse, but Temple is a solid team who matched up well. And after all, this is the NCAA tournament. I wouldn't say Florida, Duke, UNC, or UK's chances are any less just because they are coming off close games with less than astounding teams, its just the nature of the season. Overall those teams opponents don't have amazing resumes, but the tournament is all about getting favorable matchups, which is why some games outcomes often don't make sense at first thought.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 21, 2011 21:50:08 GMT -5
I agree, approo, and that's why I said my other post was a cheap shot. But what exactly has SD ST done beside beat Zaga and St. Mary's, and how exactly do they match up well with UConn? I really don't know. I'm sure they're a good team, and anything can happen in a single game, but I don't get why they should get the benefit of the doubt here. I'm sure I'm missing something, though, because I don't really know anything about them.
Post by Mista Don't Play on Mar 21, 2011 21:59:24 GMT -5
I don't know if they necessarily matchup well with UConn, I was speaking on the Temple game. SDSU has a lot of senior leadership, which tends to help in the post season, but at the same time they have little NCAA tourney experience. They appear to have a good defense, from a numbers perspective, but that could be exaggerated based on the level of competition they have been playing. I think UConn should be the favorite. It is worth noting that UConn with Calhoun is 0-7 in NCAA tourney games against teams playing in their home state. But I don't put a lot of stock in these kinds of statistics because they have no real affect on the outcome of this game. They can give themselves a chance by selling out against Walker, but Lamb is coming along nicely and if they don't keep a man on him they could be in for some trouble as well. For SDSU, Leonard seems to be a very capable scorer at the forward position, so I don't know who UConn will have defending him.
Why do you think SD ST is being underrated, glennron? They played four decent games all year, and lost half of them. I'm counting St. Mary's, Zaga, and the first two BYU games because the third game with BYU was BYU's second game without Davies, and I think they were still in disarray then. They look like they've figured out how to play without him since then, and looking at the way SD ST played Temple, I think BYU would win for the third time if they had a rematch.
What am I missing?
What I initially meant was that it seemed like a couple people on here just assumed it was an easy win for UConn, since they were talking about how great Duke-UConn will be. On a truly neutral site, I think I'd give UConn a slight edge as they've obviously been playing quite well their last several games, but this game is about an hour or 2 from SDSU's campus, and about 3,000 miles from Connecticut's. As far as SDSU's team itself, they are very good defensively; possibly better than any defense UConn saw in the Big East this year. They're also good at getting offensive boards and don't really turn it over too many times, just like Connecticut (though UConn is a better rebounding team). I'm not saying it's impossible for this game to result in a blowout, I'd just be a little surprised if either team wins by more than 6 or 7 points.
Also, I guess we have different definitions of "decent." Why are you so quick to discredit Temple and UNLV (who they played twice)? Both teams had solid regular seasons and were deserving tourney teams.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 21, 2011 22:15:57 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't counting tourney games, just regular season and conference tourney games, but yes, they played Temple to a two overtime win in the tourney. So if we count UNLV too, and why not I guess, they played seven eight (looks like they played powerhouse of 1991 UNLV three times) decent games all season, and went 5 6-2 in them. That's ok, I guess, but five six decent wins including barely squeaking past freaking Temple in what was essentially a home game doesn't suggest to me a great team worth really worrying about. Like I said, anything can happen in one game, but I still think UConn is the team to beat in that region.
Post by Longtime and Frequent Poster on Mar 21, 2011 22:32:36 GMT -5
Dude, it was one game. Temple is pretty good, not saying they're great. San Diego State won the game anyway. By that logic, it took UConn OT to beat an awful South Florida team, IN Connecticut. And they only beat a 13-win Seton Hall team by two this year also. I don't like their chances based on a cherry-picked two game sample size.
Also, nice touch with the 1991 UNLV reference. Clearly that's what I meant when I said "both teams had solid regular seasons and were deserving tourney teams."
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 21, 2011 22:45:37 GMT -5
The problem is that it was one game of only six decent wins they've had. I'm not taking a cheap shot at all, as you are implying. Hell, let's count the other BYU game. They have seven decent wins all season. I admit I haven't counted, but I bet UConn has more than seven decent wins even if you don't count the teams they beat twice.
Post by Del Griffith on Mar 22, 2011 9:08:45 GMT -5
what's with all the arguing??
it's gonna be OSU v KS in the final.
i picked KS to win it all, but the way OSU is playing right now, i think i made a mistake.
granted, OSU has played UTSA and GM, but they handled both teams by 30+.
hopefully KY can give them a good game, but i still see OSU winning by double digits.
and look at the road to the final for KS - Richmond, FSU/VCU in their region and (probably) WISC or FL to get to the final 4?? even if i'm incorrect about WISC or FL, Butler or BYU??
Barring injury to the Morris Twins, Kansas should be able to head to the championship. Just to make it to the final 4, they won't have to play against anybody higher than 10th seed. VCU's run has impressed me though, they might be able to take them out. Like when George Mason (another CAA team) took out top seeded Uconn in the elite eight in '06.
I have BYU beating Florida because Florida is simply overrated(They lost to Jacksonville and South Carolina at home). How does a team go from 15th ranked in the nation to a 2 seed? While Kentucky who won the tournament and was 11th ranked makes a 4th seed.
As far as my final four predictions I have all 4 in it right now, bout the only thing good on my brackets. I have Kentucky vs. Duke, and Kansas vs. BYU on the other half of the bracket. Kentucky losing to Kansas in the championship game.
I admit though Kentucky vs Ohio State was a tough decision but i think John Calipari's coaching experience and the perimeter shooting of Kentucky's guards will give them the edge. 3s are key, that's how OSU lost to Wisconsin and Purdue. Should be a great game.
i picked KS to win it all, but the way OSU is playing right now, i think i made a mistake.
Same here. OSU looks tough right now. You never know though -- seems like every year a team comes out looking great then takes the week off and comes back the next weekend looking beatable.
And Bama took care of MWC's New Mexico last night. My NIT bracket is still looking good, at least.