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I do think healthcare should be cheaper for more people to afford, but to think that everyone deserves it is insane. People should have to pay, just like me!
I think every willing body should work, unless they have money and aren't abusing the system.
There is jobs out there, maybe not the best jobs, but it would be better then nothing and using the working people to raise your 3 or 4 kids.
I have issues with the welfare system, and yes I know this has nothing to do with Obama right now.
I'm not crazy about the concept of socialized health care. Having received some pretty wretched care under the military system myself -- and hearing some surprising stories from friends in other countries with national healthcare -- it's not a panacea for what ails us now.
Kelaroo, there are lots of folks who work and don't have employer-sponsored health insurance. And lots of folks who work and still require some type of assistance. They're called the working poor.
I am a working person, and I pay 130 a month for health insurance.
If you are working and trying to better yourself, I see nothing wrong with getting a little help. I am talking about the people who don't work and live off of us working people. It isn't fair, and I will never agree with it.
I do think healthcare should be cheaper for more people to afford, but to think that everyone deserves it is insane. People should have to pay, just like me!
I think every willing body should work, unless they have money and aren't abusing the system.
There is jobs out there, maybe not the best jobs, but it would be better then nothing and using the working people to raise your 3 or 4 kids.
I have issues with the welfare system, and yes I know this has nothing to do with Obama right now.
Well what they are calling for is not really socialized medicine like say they have in France. It more like what they did in MA, requiring businesses with more than 5 employees to provide it, and putting a government backed option out there for small business owners, and other people who do not get it from work. I think it is a good idea, and the recent statement by the Medical Insurance companies about a willingness to flatten out rates for the sick, and non sick alike makes me like it even more. I think eventually if this system works out, it will provide better cheaper coverage, that does not really meet the definition of socialised. Alos lets be fair, if nothing else the health insurance people need some serious oversight you guys would poo yourself if you knew what my single family crappy health insurance costs me every month.
If you read Obama's plan it is not socialized medicine. That is a big Republican party scare tactic. The plan is to give tax breaks to employers so they can afford healthcare for their employees. The plan will allow them to purchase quality insurance and take the burden off of small business, many have to fold because they cannot afford it. I have to pay a few hundred dollars a week for my insurance and my employer pays almost 600. It is a small business.
The second part of that is insurance will no pay fully for medicine it should. My wife has MS and one, JUST ONE, of her medicines cost 35000 a year. We had to fight to get her medicaid benifits which we pay into. Private insurance, with copayments and deductibles would be over 3000 a month with all her medicines and MD visits.
SO purchasing insurance is not always an option, and not everyone on medicaid is abusing like I said we had to have and fight for a program where we purchase it from the state for my wife...and I know you guys arent saying that...just that when making generalizations about insurance many people will be left out...
We've been over this whole welfare thing a couple times already
i apologize. i was not trying to start another welfare discussion/argument. what i will say though, is that many of the people we see in my clinic have to go to these medicaid/welfare offices have to wait in line for hours to apply, make corrections to spelling errors/wrong dob's/etc. that is just the lower class. imagine if we add a few million more people into the mix, people will be waiting days to apply, correct info, etc.
i will give you some karma, kc, for not relying on name calling. i will have to look the other way for that weiner comment though. it is starting to feel like there can actually be civil discussions w/o all the name calling, bashing, etc. and that i believe is good.
^Well what about Roads, Schools, Firemen, Bridges, etc....
keep in mind what Boz does for a living......I see all the development in the city where he works. They are increasing their tax base every time I look around - either by expending the city limits and annexing areas or by development - yet he is still paid crappy and then they tax the hell out of that. We don't even want to talk about the crappy insurance the city offers. We ended up dropping it after I went to work where I am - they kept increasing the premiums (it was going to be close to $400 per month) yet the insurance policy did not cover anything.
fact is - taxes suck and I just cannot see - in Mississippi at least - where taxes are paying for anything. Most of the school are in bad shape and need renovations or demolition.
They send home a supply list each year. I don't mean just a simple, backpack, binder, paper list. I have to provide hand sanitizer, paper towels, zip lock bags, paper, pencils, etc. and lots of them - normally the list states 3 packages of pencils, 5 packages of paper, 6 folders with brads - things like that. it's about $150.00 each school year and then to add to it - they send notes home periodically asking for more. There is no soap in the bathrooms and no paper towels. PLUS our teachers pay is horrible.
and the conditions of the roads in Mississippi suck PLUS - the cost of tags (part of which is supposed to pay for the road repair) is outrageous. ONE tag - just for the back of the car can run thousands of dollars depending on the county you live in and the value of your vehicle. If you buy a brand new Volvo - the tag is going to run between $600 - $1200 for one piece of mtal for one year. and the roads suck
Last Edit: Mar 30, 2009 15:30:06 GMT -5 by Meg - Back to Top
I have no idea about this, but I would assume a lot of the taxes in MS are going to the continued repair efforts after Katrina and didn't ya'll just have a tornado?
As far as socialized medicine vs hmo's - I can't fathom that it would cost more! I have no idea what I pay every month on health / dental insurance for me and my gf. it's a lot. thanks Blue Cross.
I have no idea about this, but I would assume a lot of the taxes in MS are going to the continued repair efforts after Katrina and didn't ya'll just have a tornado?
Nope - because it has been like this for as long as I have lived here - which is about 20 years
^Well what about Roads, Schools, Firemen, Bridges, etc....
keep in mind what Boz does for a living......I see all the development in the city where he works. They are increasing their tax base every time I look around - either by expending the city limits and annexing areas or by development - yet he is still paid crappy and then they tax the hell out of that. We don't even want to talk about the crappy insurance the city offers. We ended up dropping it after I went to work where I am - they kept increasing the premiums (it was going to be close to $400 per month) yet the insurance policy did not cover anything.
fact is - taxes suck and I just cannot see - in Mississippi at least - where taxes are paying for anything. Most of the school are in bad shape and need renovations or demolition.
They send home a supply list each year. I don't mean just a simple, backpack, binder, paper list. I have to provide hand sanitizer, paper towels, zip lock bags, paper, pencils, etc. and lots of them - normally the list states 3 packages of pencils, 5 packages of paper, 6 folders with brads - things like that. it's about $150.00 each school year and then to add to it - they send notes home periodically asking for more. There is no soap in the bathrooms and no paper towels. PLUS our teachers pay is horrible.
and the conditions of the roads in Mississippi suck PLUS - the cost of tags (part of which is supposed to pay for the road repair) is outrageous. ONE tag - just for the back of the car can run thousands of dollars depending on the county you live in and the value of your vehicle. If you buy a brand new Volvo - the tag is going to run between $600 - $1200 for one piece of mtal for one year. and the roads suck
I'll tell you what is wrong with our education system-that money is NOT going where it belongs. I work for state government (indirectly), and that money is going everywhere but to the students and the actual schools. MS is toward the bottom of the list on spending on students per year, but we get some of the most money per student from the federal government-all very sketchy. Check out the raises the top folks in Education get each year in the state of Mississippi (all coming from the state's Education budget). Some of those people's salaries compared to others is ridiculous!!! Ask yourself why there are "school districts" with only ONE school in them, equipped with its own superintendent...making a lot of money. I hope there is an overhaul soon b/c Mississippi's educational system is going down the shitter. I'm thankful I got a decent education!
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I do think healthcare should be cheaper for more people to afford, but to think that everyone deserves it is insane. People should have to pay, just like me!
Everyone doesn't deserve healthcare?? You really believe that?
Post by nitetimeritetime on Mar 31, 2009 12:52:18 GMT -5
My wife is a cancer survivor. If she didn't have the job she has now, she wouldn't be able to get any health insurance coverage. No private insurer would cover her if they weren't required by law to do so because of her job. None of them would. Let me repeat that: if BC/BS weren't required, by law, to cover my wife, she would have to go without medical care.
I have a private plan through BC/BS, which costs a boat load of $, but I found out the hard way that it costs a lot more to get accidentally injured without any insurance, so I pay it.
Neither I nor my wife get to choose which doctors we want. BC/BS chooses that for us. We don't get to choose which medical procedures we want either. BC/BS chooses that for us too. And we have to fight with them on the phone constantly (at least once a month) to get them to cover the things that they're supposed to cover.
If we need any medical procedure that BC/BS thinks isn't "standard" we have to wait until that procedure is approved by BC/BS. That sometimes takes weeks.
The idea that we have "choices" right now that would be lost under "socialized medicine" is misguided. The idea that there would be "more paperwork" or "longer waits" or "more bureacracy" is equally misguided.
I do think healthcare should be cheaper for more people to afford, but to think that everyone deserves it is insane. People should have to pay, just like me!
Everyone doesn't deserve healthcare?? You really believe that?
great point.
when i stopped considering myself a real Libertarian is when i realized that the poor, sick old lady (or whatever) needs help. and relying on the private sector to offer it is not a good plan.
I do think healthcare should be cheaper for more people to afford, but to think that everyone deserves it is insane. People should have to pay, just like me!
Everyone doesn't deserve healthcare?? You really believe that?
I am saying it isn't fair to me to have to pay 130 a month for insurance, and then someone else has 3 kids not married and they get free everything! If I go get knocked up knowing I can't afford the kid, I would get everything handed to me. I know accidents happen, but birth control you can get free at your local clinic.
I think people do deserve it, but they should have to work for it just like I do.
I wasn't saying no one deserves it, but if your a willing body and are able to work, how is it fair for you to sit home while I am at work everyday!
I am not even talking about senior citizens, I am talking about the 20-30-40 year old people who abuse the system!
My wife is a cancer survivor. If she didn't have the job she has now, she wouldn't be able to get any health insurance coverage. No private insurer would cover her if they weren't required by law to do so because of her job. None of them would. Let me repeat that: if BC/BS weren't required, by law, to cover my wife, she would have to go without medical care.
I have a private plan through BC/BS, which costs a boat load of $, but I found out the hard way that it costs a lot more to get accidentally injured without any insurance, so I pay it.
Neither I nor my wife get to choose which doctors we want. BC/BS chooses that for us. We don't get to choose which medical procedures we want either. BC/BS chooses that for us too. And we have to fight with them on the phone constantly (at least once a month) to get them to cover the things that they're supposed to cover.
If we need any medical procedure that BC/BS thinks isn't "standard" we have to wait until that procedure is approved by BC/BS. That sometimes takes weeks.
The idea that we have "choices" right now that would be lost under "socialized medicine" is misguided. The idea that there would be "more paperwork" or "longer waits" or "more bureacracy" is equally misguided.
im sorry to hear of your situation, bro. however, working in the medical field, especially the billing aspect, i know first hand that bc/bs is one of the cheapest insurances. i dont mean cheap as in it doesnt cost that much to have, but cheap as in they do everything in their power to not pay for procedures. the clinic i work at does not accept bc/bs, so for those with the insurance, we offer them to pay out of pocket, give them a copy of the superbill (shows patients name, date of service, how much they paid, and what diagnosis the doctor found), and they can fill the claim themselves. we have one particular patient that loves our service and pays for every visit. she has filed the claims, and is still waiting on reimbursements for visits two years ago.
i also know that many doctors here in san antonio are stopping the acceptance of bc/bs just because the insurance is such a cheap skate. it takes forever to get paid, and what they do pay the doctor is comparable, if not less, than medicaid/medicare payments.
Being employed -- even full-time -- does not ensure that one is offered health care benefits, nor does it ensure that one earns enough to purchase insurance on his or her own.
Nitetimeritetime, can you clarify what you mean by BC/BS chooses your doctors for you?
Everyone doesn't deserve healthcare?? You really believe that?
I am saying it isn't fair to me to have to pay 130 a month for insurance, and then someone else has 3 kids not married and they get free everything! If I go get knocked up knowing I can't afford the kid, I would get everything handed to me. I know accidents happen, but birth control you can get free at your local clinic.
I think people do deserve it, but they should have to work for it just like I do.
I wasn't saying no one deserves it, but if your a willing body and are able to work, how is it fair for you to sit home while I am at work everyday!
I am not even talking about senior citizens, I am talking about the 20-30-40 year old people who abuse the system!
if you had 3 kids and no job, then you would have to stay home and collect. who would watch the kids? day care is *insanely* expensive.
do you really think there are that many people abusing the system as you're describing? I'm guessing your answer is yes, i guess i have a more optimistic outlook.
I would rather take care of a few undesirables and offer some coverage to everyone, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.
My point being DON'T have three kids you can't afford. In all honesty you probably couldn't even afford the first one, sometimes you have to use common sense!
But I am done talking about it. It just makes me mad, and I am trying to work today!
im sorry to hear of your situation, bro. however, working in the medical field, especially the billing aspect, i know first hand that bc/bs is one of the cheapest insurances. i dont mean cheap as in it doesnt cost that much to have, but cheap as in they do everything in their power to not pay for procedures. the clinic i work at does not accept bc/bs, so for those with the insurance, we offer them to pay out of pocket, give them a copy of the superbill (shows patients name, date of service, how much they paid, and what diagnosis the doctor found), and they can fill the claim themselves. we have one particular patient that loves our service and pays for every visit. she has filed the claims, and is still waiting on reimbursements for visits two years ago.
i also know that many doctors here in san antonio are stopping the acceptance of bc/bs just because the insurance is such a cheap skate. it takes forever to get paid, and what they do pay the doctor is comparable, if not less, than medicaid/medicare payments.
No need to feel sorry for me. My wife is fine, no longer has cancer, and has passed the typical danger point for recurrence.
As for my insurance sitaution, it is normal. I'm not trying to gain any sympathy here, because my situation is exactly the same as most people who have insurance.
The situation you have described is exactly why the healthcare industry needs to be changed.
To paraphrase, you said earlier that nationalized health care would mean more bureacracy and lack of choice. Both of us have now decribed the current situation as one in which private insurers are already doing the things you fear about nationalized healthcare.
I obviously don't know all the doctors in the US, but I've never met a doctor who would rather deal with private insurers than, for example, Medicare.
I do think healthcare should be cheaper for more people to afford, but to think that everyone deserves it is insane. People should have to pay, just like me!
Everyone doesn't deserve healthcare?? You really believe that?
I do. Nobody is entitled to healthcare. Would I love for everyone to have the health care they need? Absolutely. But we don't live in an ideal society. Living in the US, you are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happines.
200 years ago, health insurance didn't exist. Life expectancies were also alot shorter.
I am not disagreeing that there are plenty of groups of people that get screwed on a regular basis. I also agree that large businesses should be forced to have some kind of group insurance plan for employees.
But people need a reality check. Sure, cheaper healthcare is a great idea, but that money has to come from somewhere. At the end of the day, somebody has to pay the hospitals and the NO NO WORD!!!! companies, the rehab centers, etc.
This is a sad truth, and I feel horrible for the people in these situations, and I am not singling anyone out. But the cases do arise where somebody with X amount of coverage can't afford 200k for the operation needed to save a loved one's life. Sometimes the money is just not there. It's painful. It sucks. But that person does not deserve the operation.
Somebody wiht the same condition in Africa, wouldn't know the operation even existed. They wouldn't have access to NO NO WORD!!!! and other treatments, that can at least make the codition more bearable. Person A is no more deserving than person B of that operation. Obviously, if person A is close to you, you find it outrageos that you can't get help. It's completely understandable. But every sick person is somebody's husband/son/brother/friend whatever. The emotion needs to be removed from the equation, and the facts need to be looked at.
We still live in a world that is survival of the fittest. A big part of survival in modern society is money. Like it or not. Centuries ago brute strength was the key aspect of survival. Things change.
I am 24 years old. I'm a college graduate. I pay my own insurance, food, rent, etc. I have a pretty decent job, with good benefits, so insurance doesn't cost me too much. I also busted my ass in high school when most of the kids were out partying. I busted my ass to get into a good college, and took one of the most difficult majors (i partied my ass off in college, and barely passed, but D's get degrees in college). And I know this argument will come up, "well not everyone is so lucky to have the opportunity to go to college." I have close to 20k in student loans (you can go to pretty much any 4 yr State U for that much $$) that I'm paying off. Close to $200/month. The vast majority of people who are making decent money don't get there by mistake or luck. Its hard work.
So to my final point is, at the end of the day, it is your responsibility that you and your family are taken care of. If you plan on having kids, and don't have the resources to adequately take care of them, don't have them. If you do, don't look for me to pay the bills. I have my own.
edit: I'm not against helping others by any means. I just think taxing people (above what is done currently) isn't the way to do it. Fundraisers for people in the community who are sick, donating to charities, charity walks, etc are much better ways of doing things. People can help the people they love, and causes that are closest to them, directly, rather than having that $$ dragged through all the government red tape.
^This Is is okay. I get smited everytime I write in here.
I am in the same boat as you, except without college loans. I was fortunate, but I would have had them, bc I was determined to better myself. I pay over 2000 a month for bills, and why should my earned money go to someone who doesn't try to work.
Being employed -- even full-time -- does not ensure that one is offered health care benefits, nor does it ensure that one earns enough to purchase insurance on his or her own.
Nitetimeritetime, can you clarify what you mean by BC/BS chooses your doctors for you?
Absolutely, Sassbox. Awesome name, btw. And you are right that employment doesn't guarantee insurance converage. It is for this reason that my wife cannot change jobs unless the new employer also offers insurance (many don't), because without it, she couldn't get covered by any insurer. Fortunately she likes her job, but if she didn't she would still be stuck there. But hey, at least she has a job in this economy. If she were "downsized" we would be screwed, and I would probably have to cancel my insurance so that we could pay for her health care.
Some choice, huh?
To answer your question: BC/BS (actually all insurers do this) provides a list of primary care physicians you can choose from. The primary care physician is the one you go to for checkups and such -- if you're a man, this is the doctor who puts on that rubber glove and gets to know you better than most people should; for women, you also get a list of OB/GYNs to choose from. Many primary care physicians in your town are not on this list. So if you change insurance (or jobs), you often have to change your primary care physician or GYN.
Now, you still get some choice here, but you do not have the choice to see whichever doctor you please.
But if you need to see a specialist for any reason, your list typically drops down to a list of one. There may be multiple specialists in your area, some better than others, but you have to go to the one that your insurer has approved. In the case of specialists, your only real choice is to have the procedure done by the one on your list or to go without.
Well if nobody had insurance the Doctors would be forced to treat people at a reasonable rate. The disparity between charges to an insurance company, and those to someone without insurance is almost 200%. This is what shuts people out of healthcare.
As to the issue of not having kids, that is a choice, buut what are you gonna do force abortions on people who have an income below 18k a year? Children to a certain extent belong to a society as a whole because they represent our future. I may not like the choices and actions others have made, but I will never have a problem trying to take care of children in the best way possible.
And - I have BC/BS - love it - have never had an issue with them not wanting to pay. Sure I have to go to a provider in the network - but there are dozens of them to choose from and before I signed up for it - I made sure that all of my family doctors were listed. I have a no deductible plan - meaning all I ever pay are the co-pay's to providers. And I get family coverage for about $200 per month.
and nitetimeritetime said
I obviously don't know all the doctors in the US, but I've never met a doctor who would rather deal with private insurers than, for example, Medicare.
Guess what?? I work directly for a VA medical facility - Medicare and Medicaid suck! They refuse to cover just about anything that is submitted to them by us. It is very rare for them to agree to pay a claim for us. BUT - BC/BS pays 90% of the time.
Everyone doesn't deserve healthcare?? You really believe that?
I do. Nobody is entitled to healthcare. Would I love for everyone to have the health care they need? Absolutely. But we don't live in an ideal society. Living in the US, you are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happines.
200 years ago, health insurance didn't exist. Life expectancies were also alot shorter.
I am not disagreeing that there are plenty of groups of people that get screwed on a regular basis. I also agree that large businesses should be forced to have some kind of group insurance plan for employees.
But people need a reality check. Sure, cheaper healthcare is a great idea, but that money has to come from somewhere. At the end of the day, somebody has to pay the hospitals and the NO NO WORD!!!! companies, the rehab centers, etc.
This is a sad truth, and I feel horrible for the people in these situations, and I am not singling anyone out. But the cases do arise where somebody with X amount of coverage can't afford 200k for the operation needed to save a loved one's life. Sometimes the money is just not there. It's painful. It sucks. But that person does not deserve the operation.
Somebody wiht the same condition in Africa, wouldn't know the operation even existed. They wouldn't have access to NO NO WORD!!!! and other treatments, that can at least make the codition more bearable. Person A is no more deserving than person B of that operation. Obviously, if person A is close to you, you find it outrageos that you can't get help. It's completely understandable. But every sick person is somebody's husband/son/brother/friend whatever. The emotion needs to be removed from the equation, and the facts need to be looked at.
We still live in a world that is survival of the fittest. A big part of survival in modern society is money. Like it or not. Centuries ago brute strength was the key aspect of survival. Things change.
I am 24 years old. I'm a college graduate. I pay my own insurance, food, rent, etc. I have a pretty decent job, with good benefits, so insurance doesn't cost me too much. I also busted my ass in high school when most of the kids were out partying. I busted my ass to get into a good college, and took one of the most difficult majors (i partied my ass off in college, and barely passed, but D's get degrees in college). And I know this argument will come up, "well not everyone is so lucky to have the opportunity to go to college." I have close to 20k in student loans (you can go to pretty much any 4 yr State U for that much $$) that I'm paying off. Close to $200/month. The vast majority of people who are making decent money don't get there by mistake or luck. Its hard work.
So to my final point is, at the end of the day, it is your responsibility that you and your family are taken care of. If you plan on having kids, and don't have the resources to adequately take care of them, don't have them. If you do, don't look for me to pay the bills. I have my own.
note:karma starting at 27.
I do think everyone deserves health care because I don't think anyone deserves to have to live with illness or injury when there are resources out there that could fix what's wrong with them, and the only thing stopping them from getting access to those resources is money. I know there are ways to earn money. I also am a college graduate. I have an advanced degree, and a great job. I'm a federal employee, so I even get to choose my health insurance, and it doesn't cost very much. And I did work very long and very hard to get where I'm at. But here's the thing, you are absolutely right that most of the people who have money worked really hard to get it, but the flip side is that a lot of the people who are poor or homeless did not get that way because they were lazy or they pumped out too many babies. A lot of them got that way because they were sick, and they were mistreated on a large or small scale, and because they just couldn't catch a break. So, while I know there are abuses to the system, and I know hard work can take you a lot of places, it doesn't always. Some people work their asses off their entire lives and barely break even. I think everyone deserves a fair chance, and having access to health care is just fundamental to that.