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John Stewart showed a montage of clips from all of the debates. Obama says he and Hilary agree on everything, EXCEPT foreign policy, and now she's going to be Sec. of State. This is the price he pays for her "support"?
why is it that about a week and a half ago Obama was desperately pushing Bush for a bailout, but now all he can do is vote present...where did his stance go? if you look at MOST (not all) of his voting record, it's more of the same--voting PRESENT, instead of actually making a decision
I haven't seen where there has even been a vote on any bailout in the past week, so I don't see how he could vote either way. Especially since he has stepped down as Senator.
^^^i stand corrected...i completely forgot that i wrote this...i will admit that i was wrong regarding the bailout, and for that i apologize...it was wrong of me to make such a statement without confirming my "sources"...my only excuse is that it was during a night of much corn and drinking, but that still doesnt make it right...i still stand by the part about obama MOSTLY voting present in the votes he participated in though
I'm willing to overlook that post on the condition of too much corn and drinking because I myself am a habitual poster under the influence.
The thing about the No Vote or Present vote, is that it is essentially a No, but without actually voting No. I didn't really understand it at first, until I read this article. www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/politics/20obama.html
"In Illinois, political experts say voting present is a relatively common way for lawmakers to express disapproval of a measure. It can at times help avoid running the risks of voting no, they add."
“If you are worried about your next election, the present vote gives you political cover,” said Kent D. Redfield, a professor of political studies at the University of Illinois at Springfield. “This is an option that does not exist in every state and reflects Illinois political culture.”
I had to revive this thread because I am just so pissed about the recent flack the President has been getting over using a teleprompter. A teleprompter!!!! Seriously?! Is he supposed to memorize his entire speeches or something? Are these critics equating verbal performance to intelligence? If so, did they just wake up from a coma after the last 8 years? It is infuriating that there are people out there that would rather discuss this moronic crap as opposed to real issues.
cant resist...they made fun of bush for butchering his pronunciation of the word "nuclear", but did anyone hear how obama pronounced the constellation "orion"...it was pretty hilarious
cant resist...they made fun of bush for butchering his pronunciation of the word "nuclear", but did anyone hear how obama pronounced the constellation "orion"...it was pretty hilarious
In all fairness I made fun of Bush because of his inability to get out more than three sentences without butchering the English language. One mispronunciation is not the same thing. Bush said something stupid more or less every time he opened his mouth.
"I don't know why you're talking about Sweden. They're the neutral one. They don't have an army." —during a Dec. 2002 Oval Office meeting with Rep. Tom Lantos, as reported by the New York Times
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004
"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."[6] — Nashville, Tenn., September 17, 2002
I think a right winger making fun of the way Obama talks is gonna have a rough row to hoe.
Post by emmitt2222 on Mar 27, 2009 21:29:56 GMT -5
Hey guys, I just have some questions for people here who really agree with Obama because I am curious and do not believe that I share a similar to opinion to many here ::ducks for cover:: These are just honest questions though, because this has always struck me as being a very open environment to ask sincere questions. If I post this in other places on the internet, I unfortunately do not seem to get answers other than personal insults. (Not affiliated with any party btw)
What is your position on war? Do you believe that Obama is anti-war? Do you agree with his position on war and why?
What is your view of personal liberties? Do you believe that they are unalienable, ingraved in every person, or are they granted to us by others (like the government), or other? Do you believe that Obama is supportive of personal liberties?
In terms of Obama's political theory, what is it that you like about him? I know there are specific issues or personality traits that everyone likes or dislikes, but I am looking to know more along the lines of his ultimate goals and views that you agree with.
How do you feel he has handled himself thus far into his presidency? If you do think he is doing a great job, I am just wondering if you are critical of him in any way? (I feel that it is always beneficial to question authority even when they are great leaders.)
If you feel any of these questions are phrased in a completely biased way, I apologize and let me know which, but I am really interested in getting a solid response from people who voted for him and support his actions. I like open discussion (not a huge fan of fiery debate though) and can not seem to find level-headed political discussion in too many places now-a-days. Any response to any or all questions would be great. Thanks guys!
Post by wonderllama on Mar 27, 2009 23:41:35 GMT -5
As an Obama voter and (I guess) supporter, I'll bite on those emmit:
1. My personal position on the wars we are currently in is we should GTFO ASAP. Iraq as a while was a horrible failure and is hurting our economy. All we have to do is ask Russia about how easy controlling the Afghanistan/Pakistan area is. I fear this will be Obama's unwinnable war just like Iraq was Bush's, and we'll pay a hefty toll in lives and money over a few years before it's all said and done. I disagreed with both major party candidates' war policies in this election, but thought Obama's option might possibly be somewhat less catastrophic. He prefers negotiations in most cases, and his stance on Russia is not as hard line. Sometimes war is necessary (see WWII), but ultimately using the full power of our military to combat "terrorism" is utterly stupid.
2. My view on personal liberties is that people should be free to do whatever they want, so long as it is not causing harm or infringing on the basic rights of others. I believe personal liberties SHOULD be inalienable. However when men with guns and riot gear can come in and raid your place and lock you in a cell, in all practicallity any rights you may "have" are at the mercy of those in power, and thus granted by the government. I believe Obama is far more supportive of my personal liberties than a Republican administration could conceivably be in this day and age, but there are definately certain freedoms that I believe we should have that he continues to stand in the way of. See his recent flippant attitude towards a qestion on marijuana legalization for an example of that.
3. It seems to me that he sees the United States as an important and functioning part of the world as a whole, rather than the "Greatest Nation on Earth" (TM) badass superpower mentality that has ingrained itself in the government and the general American public over the last several decades. We need to talk to those who don't like us. We need to learn from those who are better than us in certain areas such as education, health care, the environment, etc. I also belive him to be a large step in the right direction in terms of personal freedoms and getting our government more in line with the Constitution.
4. I'd give the man a B+ so far. This has to be taken into context that he's jumped into a massive clusterquack both domstically and globally, and has only been on the job for a little over 2 months. As far as critiques of him I'll start with Time Giethner. Now I HATE economics and am admittedly not very knowledgable about it, but I think this guy is a complete idiot. I'm a little worried that we may be toing/spending too much right now, but really we've neglected SO many things for so long that many things need attention. I'm hopefule that all this will work and I kinda think it will help things to some degree, but we'll see. I'm against his push for the assault weapon ban. I'm not like most people I know that think Obama's gonna take everyone's guns away, but the assault weapon ban is really nothing but a ban on scary looking guns. Most gun crime is commited by everyday handguns, as assault rifles are extremely hard to conceal, carry, and use in whatever quacked up situation you gotta be in to be commiting a gun crime in the first place.
Also, I'm sick and damn tired of giving my money to failed banks and insurance companies, that all they "make" is paperwork and debt. The Republicans started it now Obama's continuing it. We should not be rewarding failure. Better, smaller companies in the industry will rise to take their place. They should not be getting retetntion bonuses, they should feel lucky to still have a job. A lot of people who used to make things don't anymore. The $10 trillion or so dollars that we've thrown at this bullhonkey could pay 90% of ALL mortgages in this country. Now think of the several million or so people that would now have an extra few hundred or few thousand dollars a month to spend on whatever. If you're gonna print and throw money at the problem (which is debatable, but either party would be doing it anyway), throw it at US. We all owe the banks money anyway, so it's not like they ain't gonna get it. Now we just rightfully own all our poop.
Overall, I like the guy. It's much better than I believe McCain/Palin would have been, that literally had me scared. I didn't always agree with him on issues during the campaign and I won't agree with everything he does as president. It's going to take a while before things turn around, and it's probably gonna get a little worse before it gets better. But Obama seems to have a good long term goal and a decent plan to get us there. There's some things he could do a better job on, but on many of those issues the other option would be even more undesirable to me.
Post by emmitt2222 on Mar 28, 2009 22:23:46 GMT -5
llama,
Thanks for the well thought out response. I really appreciate it. It does give me a great glimpse into why you like and support him. I am curious, however, why you don't support someone who agrees with you on all of the positions you listed.
I have essentially agree with you on all points and I am a big fan of Ron Paul. He wants to pull out of the wars. He wants to protect all of our inalienable rights and make it so that you are completely free to do whatever you want as long as you are not harming others. He also never wanted to give any of those failed companies money and still wants to stop. Perhaps you feel there are larger issues that you disagree with him on, you think he is merely a fringe candidate or you felt your vote had to go to one of the two with a chance of winning. Whatever the case though, I feel it is important to put my support behind someone I agree with completely.
The man can obviously deliver quite a speech though.
I believe it is really important to understand economics now because it is the ultimate issue. If you would like to get a small idea of the beginning of this issue in regards to the housing crisis, there is a google docs slideshow that does a great job explaining it in simple, non-political terms. It is also quite humorous.
Post by wonderllama on Mar 29, 2009 13:58:10 GMT -5
If Ron Paul had a shot in hell at being President, I'd have considered voting for him. He wasn't even on the ballotr in my state. I like most of what the man has to say, and I think he's one of the few politicians up there that actually gives a fuck about regular people. But unfortunately a fringe major party candidate like Ron Paul or a thrid party won't be winning office any time soon. The system will make sure that anyone trying to make real and major changes to the system will come up short. There's too much money involved these days, and you have the propoganda machines of both major parties working against you. The minds of the American people have been conditioned over decades that there are only two candidates running for President, and it's going to take a whole lot to change that.
I disagreed with Obama on a number of things during his candidacy, and I know I'll continue to disagree with him in certain areas. But on many issues he's a step in the right direction. He may be going a little to slow for my taste or doing things a bit differently than I would, but we're going in the same general direction. Whereas the McCain/Palin ticket was unacceptable to me in a large number of ways. If I knew Obama was going to win in a landslide, I would have given consideration to a party that better fit my ideals. However, I felt like I needed to throw my support behind some sort of progress in the right direction over a continuation of the epic fail we've had over the last eight years. Believe me, I was as scared of a McCain/Palin ticket as many of my redneck neighbors were of the Socialist Muslim ticket.
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 29, 2009 15:03:07 GMT -5
on the other side of things, however, anyone supporting Obama was/is called a socialist baby-killer. you really can't win regardless of which side you're on.
^ Why do they have to be redneck bc they didn't like Obama?
Obama supporters claim to be so liberal and open-minded, and the first sign of someone not liking Obama they call them a redneck, lmao.
I do agree people were closed minded about Obama, but it is no ones place to call them rednecks.
I never said that everyone who didn't like Obama or voted for McCain/Palin was a redneck. I was specifically talking about my actual redneck neighbors. I live in Arkansas, I have many of them. If you ask any of them they will tell you they are damn proud to be rednecks. Rednecks are generally good people, and I have plenty of friends and family that are rednecks. Unfortunately, they aren't the most educated lot when it comes politics. Many people I know and work with really belived that Obama was a Muslim, a socialist, and was going to come and take their guns. I've even heard a family member call him N***** Jim.
Of course I shouldn't expect you to know me or where I come from, other than the location thing under my avatar. And I guess if you don't know that about me that could be seen as stereotypical Republican bashing. But I never claimed that everyone who doesn't support Obama was anything, redneck or otherwise. Perhaps you should brush up on your critical reading.
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 29, 2009 15:32:33 GMT -5
aw, was that last sentence really necessary? i'm definitely not a republican, but let's try and keep this devoid of condescension and personal attacks. we're all good people here, and i don't think anyone is meaning any harm.
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 29, 2009 15:38:37 GMT -5
kel...don't you get started too! i post on enough sites where these kinds of conversations get completely out of control because neither side can just accept that they will disagree, or are too worried about semantics to really see the point the other is trying to make.
why would you expect nothing less from an obama supporter? in texas, i can't tell you how many awful things i've been called because i'm liberal. so, in my experience, i would expect nothing less from a bush supporter, or a mccain supporter, etc.
but we shouldn't EXPECT that stuff from anyone. we should be able to discuss with respect. just makes me sad when the personal attacks start getting thrown around on this board of all places
Post by wonderllama on Mar 29, 2009 16:07:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see my last sentance was a little harsh, sorry bout that. Been a long time since my last internet fight... painful memories and all...
Even though I live in the "liberal bastion" of Arkansas that is Little Rock. I'm very used to being in the minority of political opinion, and I see and live among the stereotypes being assiciated with the Republican party. My home church would be considered "evangelical" protestant and is actually the same denomination Sarah Palin belongs to. I can also explain in great detail the difference between rednecks, hillbillies, and trailer trash. These stereotypes exist for a reason, because some of them can be way the hell out there. But the vast majority of these people are good, honest simple people that are just trying to live their lives the best way they know how. A lot of them are just scared and unfortunately easily influenced. I guess it's different living in it everyday.
Post by Fishing Maniac on Mar 29, 2009 16:29:30 GMT -5
My biggest complaint about Obama supporters is that when you criticize Obama they often immediately retort byt comparing him to George W. Bush. As though a statement criticizing Obama automatically exalts dubbya. This compounds my frustration with how Obama campaigned again Bush more than the actually candidate against whom he was running.
For the record I voted neither democrat or republican, so don't assume that a criticism of his campaign is a statement in support of McCain either.
My biggest complaint about Obama supporters is that when you criticize Obama they often immediately retort byt comparing him to George W. Bush. As though a statement criticizing Obama automatically exalts dubbya. This compounds my frustration with how Obama campaigned again Bush more than the actually candidate against whom he was running.
For the record I voted neither democrat or republican, so don't assume that a criticism of his campaign is a statement in support of McCain either.
i think obama supporters feel the need to get defensive that way because for the past 8 years they've been inundated with all things W. and because obama was all the things bush wasn't. towards the end of W's presidency, dems and repubs alike were more than ready for a change in pace. i think bush just alienated so many that he made it easy for obama to step in. not to mention mccain is NOT a conservative republican. he's too middle of the road for the true conservatives.
and while i don't think sarah palin is STUPID by any means, i don't think she was the best image for the republican party at that point in time. i think they were so worried about having a pawn that could go against obama's "first black president" title that they skimped on quality.
i guess what i'm really trying to say is that of course obama supporters get defensive. they've spent the last 8 years being told they should just "shut up and support the president"...the one they didn't vote for. now they're excited and happy and being told they're socialist baby-killers.