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It's not a logical fallacy to say that a third party had no chance of winning this past election. It's just true. Even the Green party recognizes that they are unelectable in Presidential politics right now, which is why they literally wrote their "start local" strategy into the party's platform.
Ghandi said to be the change we wish to see in the world.
Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
Again, great ideal, but how do we actually do it in national politics? What effect did your vote have on the last election? My vote helped elect a President who has at least started the kinds of political discussions that I think this country needs. Had the other guy won, we would still be debating whether torture was ok instead of debating the best way to reform health care.
1) Wait and see what actually comes from this attempt at a public option. Same thing as if it were never brought up by the other "side". Win win for BigMedicine.
2) True change will come incrementally when folks like you are bold enough to take your local independent voting theory and apply it to bring enough of a threat for your golden boys to give up actual platform planks. INCREMENTS. Not baby with the bathwater. The rising tide happens drop by drop.
It's the Hundreth Monkey theory. You may have 99 monkeys on an island, but it's not til that hundreth monkey locates the banana tree that they all begin to follow.
I think this was already covered in that thread you said you didn't read.
That was a very informative answer. Thank you.
It would be easier to believe you cared what I think about health care reform if you hadn't already announced on that thread that you couldn't be bothered to read it.
It would be easier to believe you cared what I think about health care reform if you hadn't already announced on that thread that you couldn't be bothered to read it.
I admitted that I conducted myself poorly in that thread. I apologized and I backed out. While my conduct may have been inappropriate at first and my words chosen poorly at no time did I ever make personal attacks on anyone or call anyone names. Several people did that to me so I just walked away. None of those people have apologized for calling me an idiot, hypocrite or anything else that was said about me much of which is completely inappropriate and counterproductive. I mean really, name calling is just plain infantile. No one has been criticized for that, but I, despite my apology am a lesser person than those who chose to hurl insults. I have been considerably more respectful in this thread than you have in the past two days, yet you will continue to harp on one post from a different thread from several weeks ago. One post and you're going to crucify me on it. I suppose you feel you have never made a mistake.
Geez. You build a hundred bridges and no one cares, but you f*ck one goat and they never forget it.
Sorry that I'm not worthy enough for you to share your opinion with me in this thread.
Since you are so much in favor of universal health care which of the foreign country's systems do you feel is better than the current one in the U.S.?
Anyway the point is that I want to know which country's system you think takes care of their people better than ours and why.
Look, this isn't a smurf swinging contest between the US and other countries. I don't think any country is perfect. But all the other industrialized democracies in the world guarantee health care to all of their citizens. If they can do it, we can do it better.
On another note, what do people think of Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize?
Surprised. Seems awfully early in his term. But I am not one to turn down a gift. Glad he got it. And to my friend that laughed in my face because he lost us the Olympics, up yours, we got the peace prize
I'm please he got the Nobel Peace Prize, and I certainly didn't see it coming. I'm curious to see how this gets spun though.
As for a viable 3rd part: Never gonna happen. If there was a viable 3rd party, someone could end up winning the presidency with only 34% of the vote. If Obama's 53% of the vote doesn't count as a mandate, 34% would leave the remaining 2/3 in opposition.
If you want more choices in candidates, pay attention during the primaries.
I admitted that I conducted myself poorly in that thread. I apologized and I backed out. While my conduct may have been inappropriate at first and my words chosen poorly at no time did I ever make personal attacks on anyone or call anyone names.
Actually, that's exactly what you did. As I recall, the names you called the 'vast majority' of posters in that thread were blind, sheepish, sickening, self induced stupidity, short sighted, and foolish. I'm pretty sure I skipped a couple, too.
Several people did that to me so I just walked away. None of those people have apologized for calling me an idiot, hypocrite or anything else that was said about me much of which is completely inappropriate and counterproductive. I mean really, name calling is just plain infantile.
Of course nobody apologized for calling out your hypocrisy.
No one has been criticized for that, but I, despite my apology am a lesser person than those who chose to hurl insults.
You started it in that thread. If you can't take it, don't start it.
I have been considerably more respectful in this thread than you have in the past two days,
No, you haven't.
yet you will continue to harp on one post from a different thread from several weeks ago. One post and you're going to crucify me on it. I suppose you feel you have never made a mistake.
I wasn't crucifying you. You asked what I thought about health care. I was telling you to go read the healthcare thread that you yourself said you hadn't read. I wasn't bringing it back up to hurt your little feelings. I was telling you where you would find the answer you said you wanted. Sheesh, what's up with the persecution complex?
Post by Fishing Maniac on Oct 9, 2009 10:31:14 GMT -5
Listen nitetime, I'm not going to turn this thread into an argument between you and I. Don't answer my question. I really don't care. I will say that making statements like "Dude your reading comprehension sucks tonight." among others are just rude and they don't offer anything to the thread other than insolence. You could have pointed out what I apparently missed for example. I'm trying pretty hard here to contribute to this conversation in a constructive manner, but I guess that doesn't matter since I don't agree with the majority on everything so you'll just hassle me about one post from weeks ago. Knock yourself out kiddo.
As far as the peace prize is concerned, I'm absolutely shocked. I can't imagine what he's done to deserve it. I'm sure that there are other people in the world more deserving. It is curious why the Nobel committee would choose someone who is the commander in chief of a nation involved in two separate major military conflicts. You think they would wait until he ends at least one of the wars he inherited.
I will say that making statements like "Dude your reading comprehension sucks tonight." among others are just rude and they don't offer anything to the thread other than insolence.
1) Wait and see what actually comes from this attempt at a public option. Same thing as if it were never brought up by the other "side". Win win for BigMedicine.
Good point, red. I hope that's not what happens, but I'm not optimistic at this point.
2) True change will come incrementally when folks like you are bold enough to take your local independent voting theory and apply it to bring enough of a threat for your golden boys to give up actual platform planks. INCREMENTS. Not baby with the bathwater. The rising tide happens drop by drop.
I agree. How many people in congress belong to parties other than D and R? I couldn't find that in a quick web search. I would think we'd see an increased presence of other parties in Congress before we see a viable Presidential run by a third party.
Post by Fishing Maniac on Oct 9, 2009 14:34:22 GMT -5
Back to the peace prize, the final list of nominees, which is not released by the committee, was submitted on Friday, 27 February 2009. It's safe to assume that he was nominated a few weeks before that final list was submitted. That means that he was basically nominated before he even had the opportunity to do anything to deserve it. Everything that I have against some of the guy's policies and words aside, I truly find the entire situation baffling. ???
As far as the peace prize is concerned, I'm absolutely shocked. I can't imagine what he's done to deserve it. I'm sure that there are other people in the world more deserving. It is curious why the Nobel committee would choose someone who is the commander in chief of a nation involved in two separate major military conflicts. You think they would wait until he ends at least one of the wars he inherited.
^^^this (and now that I contributed my two cents - I'll run right back out of this thread)
As for a viable 3rd part: Never gonna happen. If there was a viable 3rd party, someone could end up winning the presidency with only 34% of the vote. If Obama's 53% of the vote doesn't count as a mandate, 34% would leave the remaining 2/3 in opposition.
If you want more choices in candidates, pay attention during the primaries.
Without meaning to offend, I find this a fairly naive position. There is rarely opportunity for one to work his/her way up through the ranks from local committeeman on up. You ALWAYS answer to the party bosses on various levels, and if you do not play ball, your hopes are crushed by party endorsement, if not by other means.
Dennis Kucinich represents a region near me and is one of the best candidates(in my opinion-obviously) that demonstrates ANY kind of variance from the norm. His committee powers are basically nil. He was less "viable" BECAUSE he was a democrat.
People saying,"It's never gonna happen" is precisely why it may never happen. Assuming that a mandate is even necessary to rule, perhaps someone with 34% of the vote could be more unifying. For instance, let's take the civil war as an example. Had there been a party that interjected the possibility of states rights coexisting with federal programs as well, we may have averted killing each other in an us vs. them fashion.
And I find it as laughable that Obama was given the Peace prize as it was that Gore did. It dilutes the meaning of the award-period.
Why are you people still acting like the Nobel Peace Prize is worth jack shit, decades after it has been given to the likes of Yasir Arafat & Henry Kissinger?
Good point. I had someone argue with me today that Bush should have been given the award for his AIDS work in africa (not a terrible idea mind you) and for removing Hussein from power (effectively getting a Peace prize for starting a war).
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
Why are you people still acting like the Nobel Peace Prize is worth jack shit, decades after it has been given to the likes of Yasir Arafat & Henry Kissinger?
And that's why I like you Kdogg, despite being a liberal commie pinko. You make a great, and I mean great point. Other nominees have included Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. Ghandi was nominated many time and never won.
At least the Vietnamese official who was co-awarded the prize with Kissinger refused the prize, citing a lack of actual peace.
This particular prize was awarded to give his agenda international legitimacy and momentum for the future... or at least to reward him for not being W... and Obama knows it. Quote to reporters in a Rose Garden ceremony this morning: "Let me be clear: I do not view it as a recognition of my own accomplishments, but rather as an affirmation of American leadership on behalf of aspirations held by people in all nations. To be honest, I do not feel that I deserve to be in the company of so many of the transformative figures who've been honored by this prize."
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
As far as the peace prize is concerned, I'm absolutely shocked. I can't imagine what he's done to deserve it. I'm sure that there are other people in the world more deserving. It is curious why the Nobel committee would choose someone who is the commander in chief of a nation involved in two separate major military conflicts. You think they would wait until he ends at least one of the wars he inherited.
^^^this (and now that I contributed my two cents - I'll run right back out of this thread)
Thirded. I'm not saying Obama hasn't made a lot of significant accomplishments in his life time - President of Harvard Law Review, US Senator, published author, community organizer and of course, first African American President - I just think it's incredibly premature to award him with such a major honor. He's clearly not receiving the prize for any of the above accomplishments besides the last one. His body of work as Commander in Chief is still insignificant in the grand scheme of things (especially when you consider Maniac's point that he was in office for at most a month before he was nominated). Instead of honoring him for what he's done, they're honoring him simply for what he is. To me, that goes against the purpose of the whole thing. I think it cheapens the prestige and integrity of the Nobel Prize to award it based on politics as opposed to achievements. It just seems like this is the first step on the path towards it becoming nothing more than a popularity contest. Maybe next year they'll open up the nomination process to the public and let us vote from our phones for 99 cents per text.