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Five years ago today we began the invasion of Iraq. Just thought I'd recap where we stand today. Note that all numbers are confirmed numbers. Realize that these numbers represent a bare minimum.
US troop deaths - 3990 Total Coalition Deaths - 4298 Contractor Deaths - more than 1,000 (no exact figures released) Documented Iraqi Deaths - 89,760
Direct Costs: approx $500,000,000,000 Long term costs: $2,000,000,000,000
I do not mean this post as blank criticism. I just hope we all will remember this next time (and there will be a next time) a President tells you a war will be quick, cheap and easy. War is not cheap. And it is definitely never easy. Especially not for the soldiers and their families. __________________________________________________________
"I believe that the success will be fairly easy." (9/24/02) - "We will win this conflict. We will win it easily." (1/22/03) ----Senator John McCain
Ted Koppel: [Y]ou’re not suggesting that the rebuilding of Iraq is going to be done for $1.7 billion? Andrew Natsios [Bush spokesman from AID]: Well, in terms of the American taxpayer's contribution, I do. This is it for the U.S. ---4/23/03
"My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . [in] weeks rather than months." -- D!ck Cheney on NBC's Meet the Press Mar. 16, 2003
"It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." - Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense Feb. 7, 2003
“Well, the Office of Management and Budget, has come up come up with a number that's something under $50 billion for the cost. - Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense Jan. 10, 2003
Five days or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last longer - Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense Nov. 15, 2002
"I believe demolishing Hussein's military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk.” - Ken Adelman to the Washington Post Feb. 13, 2002
Post by SouthGA_Festival Machine on Mar 19, 2008 10:08:15 GMT -5
troo said:
Five years ago today we began the invasion of Iraq. Just thought I'd recap where we stand today. Note that all numbers are confirmed numbers. Realize that these numbers represent a bare minimum.
US troop deaths - 3990 Total Coalition Deaths - 4298 Contractor Deaths - more than 1,000 (no exact figures released) Documented Iraqi Deaths - 89,760
Direct Costs: approx $500,000,000,000 Long term costs: $2,000,000,000,000
I do not mean this post as blank criticism. I just hope we all will remember this next time (and there will be a next time) a President tells you a war will be quick, cheap and easy. War is not cheap. And it is definitely never easy. Especially not for the soldiers and their families. __________________________________________________________
"I believe that the success will be fairly easy." (9/24/02) - "We will win this conflict. We will win it easily." (1/22/03) ----Senator John McCain
Ted Koppel: [Y]ou’re not suggesting that the rebuilding of Iraq is going to be done for $1.7 billion? Andrew Natsios [Bush spokesman from AID]: Well, in terms of the American taxpayer's contribution, I do. This is it for the U.S. ---4/23/03
"My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . [in] weeks rather than months." -- D!ck Cheney on NBC's Meet the Press Mar. 16, 2003
"It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." - Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense Feb. 7, 2003
“Well, the Office of Management and Budget, has come up come up with a number that's something under $50 billion for the cost. - Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense Jan. 10, 2003
Five days or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last longer - Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense Nov. 15, 2002
"I believe demolishing Hussein's military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk.” - Ken Adelman to the Washington Post Feb. 13, 2002
Interesting statistics, but irrelevant since our commander in chief has said that the war has been "worth it".
I have come here twice to comment - and both times have deleted what I have written because my general opinions are so vastly different from the majority of people on this board
I just wanted to add something. The $$$ numbers are so large they are hard to fathom. Think of this
$500,000,000,000 is equal to roughly $6 million each day from the signing of the Declaration of Independence until today. This does not include interest or the money we will spend tomorrow and the day after and the day after ...
Just a little perspective.
Meg: We love you anyway ;D
I really don't want to start an argument. Just for people to realize what the costs are (as a minimum.) If you believe the costs are worth the benefits fine but too many people have totally ignored the costs.
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 10:50:53 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
I have come here twice to comment - and both times have deleted what I have written because my general opinions are so vastly different from the majority of people on this board
Please post your thoughts meg.....I know they are vastly different, but I seriously would like to see someone post an intelligent and resonable response that supports the war.....If thats even possible.
I have come here twice to comment - and both times have deleted what I have written because my general opinions are so vastly different from the majority of people on this board
Meg..I don't know what you said....but I'm with you.
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 10:54:22 GMT -5
bos1969 said:
I have come here twice to comment - and both times have deleted what I have written because my general opinions are so vastly different from the majority of people on this board
It IS still a free country. at least as far as posting here goes.
Don't hold back Meg. If we were all exactly the same, it wouldn't be a good thing.
Intelligent posts sprout healthy debate.
Or at least hone our skills for the next right winger who dares to speak up. ;D
But really. Don't be afraid of posting how you feel. You will either strengthen your own opinions, or come to see the light in a new way. Neither is a bad thing.
If you censor yourself like that, you've done their job for them.
Besides, it can become like a circle jerk in here. That's why I keep CAPITALIZING out of place. Just to keep it real.
Don't be afraid to keep it real so long as you are polite and consider others' perspectives.
At the very least, you should be proud that you are unique here.
We can go on all day....screw Bush, screw Cheney...I don't care about them...but putting an end to some of the worst human rights violations of the past half century doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
For example....
From 1998 to 2003 400,000 children died in Iraq due to malnutrition that was a direct result of Saddam Hussein stealing the funds provided to his nation through the oil for food program.
Post by Christopher Shawn on Mar 19, 2008 11:01:40 GMT -5
shhhhh said:
We can go on all day....screw Bush, screw Cheney...I don't care about them...but putting an end to some of the worst human rights violations of the past half century doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
For example....
From 1998 to 2003 400,000 children died in Iraq due to malnutrition that was a direct result of Saddam Hussein stealing the funds provided to his nation through the oil for food program.
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 11:03:42 GMT -5
shhhhh said:
We can go on all day....screw Bush, screw Cheney...I don't care about them...but putting an end to some of the worst human rights violations of the past half century doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
For example....
From 1998 to 2003 400,000 children died in Iraq due to malnutrition that was a direct result of Saddam Hussein stealing the funds provided to his nation through the oil for food program.
Happy Anniversary to the end of that.
I'll need a citation to back that up....
especially since electricity is available less than before the invasion.
And who is keeping stats on the health of the refugees who were forced to leave ?
You're right...we should have left it alone....who cares who dies if we don't have to see it.
More American Idol please.
And with that....I'm leaving this thread...not in to mood to argue with people I don't even know over something everyone's mind is already made up about.
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 11:06:11 GMT -5 by shhhhh - Back to Top
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 19, 2008 11:06:31 GMT -5
Moby, I agree with your points. They are valid, and they are good. And I will be one of the first to raise my hand say that I am glad Hussein is gone.
However, there are plenty of starving children in our own country. There are plenty of starving children in Africa, too, but we aren't there. Hell, there are children in Uganda being kidnapped and forced to kill their families and fight in wars before they've even reached puberty. But we aren't there.
I'm not denying the good things that have come from it. I've seen the pictures of my military friends rebuilding schools or homes and giving out food and medical supplies. But in the end, why are we STILL there? Iraq will never be a democracy. Especially not if WE are the ones trying to get them there. No matter when we leave, or even if we do, there will always be someone else who wants to take over, and who will try.
And I also think you take our "bush hating" a little too directly. I'm fully aware that Bush is not the be-all end-all in decisions that have been made. But he made the decision to go to war, and he made the decision to be the president of the united states of america, and therefore, he is responsible for the state of our country, and those choices we make as a country. Do I think he's evil? No. But I think his politics are warped(moreso than politics usually are), and that he's not nearly intelligent enough to run our country. And having been privy to his politics in Texas before he was president, I could go off on plenty o f reason why he's screwed up Texas...especially in education.
So while i know Bush isn't the ONLY person making these decision, it IS his politics, and HIS cabinet of advisors who are. Don't take the position if you aren't willing to take the responsibility that goes along with it.
Post by Christopher Shawn on Mar 19, 2008 11:06:58 GMT -5
shhhhh said:
You're right...we should have left it alone....who cares who dies if we don't have to see it.
More American Idol please.
Hussein was taken care of even if we went in there with false reasons. He's gone, why are we still there when the country has the means to fend for itself?
Post by suspendedzen on Mar 19, 2008 11:07:07 GMT -5
5 years, three trillion dollars, 4 thousand lives lost, hundreds of thousands damaged....all for a (failed) bid at nation-building.
Nation-building is the biigest of big-govt concepts. It is the size of everything the GOP claims to hate ('socialized medicine', minimum wage, social security, etc) all rolled into one, and still probably bigger. Yet, in this case, the "conservatives" (they're far from it) just love this war. Stupid. And, beyond that, nation-building and forced democracy are concepts that have NEVER worked. Warfare, no matter how stupidly it's most diligent personal avoiders like Bush Jr and Cheney think, is not a romantic adventure for the participants and should ALWAYS be fought to the quickest victory, not prolonged limply while soldiers die and the backers get richer and richer.
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 19, 2008 11:08:14 GMT -5
shhhhh said:
You're right...we should have left it alone....who cares who dies if we don't have to see it.
More American Idol please.
And with that....I'm leaving this thread...not in to mood to argue with people I don't even know over something everyone's mind is already made up about.
well, i respect you not wanting to join in the conversation, but you're really blowing this out of proportion. your mind is already made up as well, but we still want to hear your ideas. And I think your implications are a bit rude. Just because we don't like bush we MUST watch mindless television shows or we don't know what's going on?? come on now man...i would hope you give us a little more credit than that.
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 11:09:22 GMT -5
shhhhh said:
You're right...we should have left it alone....who cares who dies if we don't have to see it.
More American Idol please.
And with that....I'm leaving this thread...not in to mood to argue with people I don't even know over something everyone's mind is already made up about.
Or perhaps we caused it by propping up Hussein as our boy against Iran in the 80's.
I don't watch tv, though. Maybe I'd cite American Idol instead of where I got the stat about 400,000 dead children.
Cheers...
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 11:12:14 GMT -5 by shhhhh - Back to Top
Post by Christopher Shawn on Mar 19, 2008 11:09:54 GMT -5
hippienaustin said:
shhhhh said:
You're right...we should have left it alone....who cares who dies if we don't have to see it.
More American Idol please.
And with that....I'm leaving this thread...not in to mood to argue with people I don't even know over something everyone's mind is already made up about.
well, i respect you not wanting to join in the conversation, but you're really blowing this out of proportion. your mind is already made up as well, but we still want to hear your ideas. And I think your implications are a bit rude. Just because we don't like bush we MUST watch mindless television shows or we don't know what's going on?? come on now man...i would hope you give us a little more credit than that.
Its just easier to spout something like that than to actually know what youre talking about and defend your opinion in a decent manner.
<----sees the bait....swims past the bait...and hopes everyone has a nice day....and throws karma over his shoulder to Hippie for being lovable and always wanting to argue at the same time.
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 19, 2008 11:14:06 GMT -5
shhhhh said:
<----sees the bait....swims past the bait...and hopes everyone has a nice day....and throws karma over his shoulder to Hippie for being lovable and always wanting to argue at the same time.
i wasn't throwing anything into the water. i just like having discussions with people who's intelligence level i trust.
Post by Christopher Shawn on Mar 19, 2008 11:15:19 GMT -5
Well I guess we had a chance for someone to post an opinion that was adverse to the majority of the board. But I guess they couldnt find anything worth posting to back up their views. Its annoying because its usually the ribbon bumper sticker toating, flag wavers that run rampant with half facts and falsehoods that spout them rabidly until theyre pinned into an actual conversation. It gets old and its this kind of thought that prevents conversation and prevent opinions that may be wrong from moving into the hypothetical right direction.
That's why I didn't really want to start an argument. Everyone has already decided how they feel by now. They will be no mind changing.
Once again, I just think everyone should examine the cost to benefits ratio and make up their own mind. I also strongly feel we should examine how we got into the war so we know what's in store next time. It seems we have forgotten all the lessons of Vietnam; military, financial, geo-political; and went into this war unprepared for the reality of warfare. I'm hoping (likely in vain) that we don't forget again.
We must go into the next war (good or bad) with our eyes open and fully aware of what we are getting into. That's all I hope.
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 11:16:40 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
;D 
