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I spoke with a friend who is a lawyer about this a couple days ago - apparently they discussed the case in a class of his. There's a bunch of physical evidence that the documentary never mentions tying Avery to the crime. He said it was a great documentary and highly entertaining, but no chance that Avery was innocent of the second crime. He said the most important thing to takeaway from watching it was how imperfect the justice system is at every single level. Just his 2 cents though.
Did your friend say what that evidence was? The only thing I've found that seemed particularly damning to me was the dna on the car hood. While that certainly points to him, I don't think it, by any means, eliminates the chance that he was innocent. Everything else I've heard is the stuff about him calling her or buying handcuffs. Sure, these things don't look good for him, but they don't justify a murder conviction, at least as far as I can tell. Without having sat through the trial, it's impossible to say whether I'd have voted guilty or not, but I think it's particularly interesting that seven of the jurors initially were apparently ready to vote not guilty at the close of trial. If that's really the case, I have a hard time believing the evidence against him was so strong that there's not a chance he is innocent.
I get that you are just saying what your friend's thoughts on it were, but I've been seeing multiple people say similar things, and I have yet to see one give a really convincing explanation for why they believe he's definitely guilty. I absolutely know the documentary was hugely biased, and I don't necessarily think he's innocent. I'm just trying to understand why some people are so convinced that he is guilty.
This was just a FB chat conversation so we didn't get super in-depth. He didn't mention specifics. I'll ask him though!!
Did your friend say what that evidence was? The only thing I've found that seemed particularly damning to me was the dna on the car hood. While that certainly points to him, I don't think it, by any means, eliminates the chance that he was innocent. Everything else I've heard is the stuff about him calling her or buying handcuffs. Sure, these things don't look good for him, but they don't justify a murder conviction, at least as far as I can tell. Without having sat through the trial, it's impossible to say whether I'd have voted guilty or not, but I think it's particularly interesting that seven of the jurors initially were apparently ready to vote not guilty at the close of trial. If that's really the case, I have a hard time believing the evidence against him was so strong that there's not a chance he is innocent.
I get that you are just saying what your friend's thoughts on it were, but I've been seeing multiple people say similar things, and I have yet to see one give a really convincing explanation for why they believe he's definitely guilty. I absolutely know the documentary was hugely biased, and I don't necessarily think he's innocent. I'm just trying to understand why some people are so convinced that he is guilty.
This was just a FB chat conversation so we didn't get super in-depth. He didn't mention specifics. I'll ask him though!!
Btw, I finished watching the series last night and I'm very disappointed in Wisconsin's legal system. What a joke. I mean, I can pretend to understand Avery's case given the fact that the bullet apparently came from his gun and his blood being present in her car.
But how in the world does Dassey get convicted? There was literally zero physical evidence tying him to the scene. Zilch. Zero. Nada. I can't believe his statement was admitted despite the fact his attorney was forced out of the trial because he advised Dassey to give the statement. It's remarkable.
Btw, I finished watching the series last night and I'm very disappointed in Wisconsin's legal system. What a joke. I mean, I can pretend to understand Avery's case given the fact that the bullet apparently came from his gun and his blood being present in her car.
But how in the world does Dassey get convicted? There was literally zero physical evidence tying him to the scene. Zilch. Zero. Nada. I can't believe his statement was admitted despite the fact his attorney was forced out of the trial because he advised Dassey to give the statement. It's remarkable.
Pretty similar to my feelings on it. I think Dassey is the real miscarriage of justice. It's shocking to me that there wasn't reasonable doubt for this kid.
Avery, I think had issues all over the place in the trial, but it's hard for me to think he's innocent.
Post by Radius Claus on Jan 16, 2016 2:06:23 GMT -5
I don't know how anyone can believe anything Jodi says. I mean what, if anything, did we learn from double talk from the people in this documentary? In regards to this interview, you really have to ask, "Do you still have the letter where he threatened you?" Not saying he's innocent...I have a lot to say about this show, but I'm going to sleep on it.
Post by itrainmonkeys on Jan 16, 2016 2:18:08 GMT -5
HLN.....isn't that the network Nancy Grace is on? Hasn't she been railing against this documentary? I guarantee she uses this for more content to talk shit about the case/documentary series.
I'm not sure I believe what Jodi says. I bet she's happy to be on TV/getting attention. I still don't believe Steven is totally innocent or anything but there's definitely sketchy shit going on. Feels like an attention-grab but what do I know?
Just read this: Stachowski says she hasn’t watched the series because “it’s all lies.”
Nancy Grace has not been a fan of Avery. I stated watching the HLN interview with Jodi but I just couldn't. She is so inconsistent in everything she says. Also, she would never be a creditable witness in court. The defense would have tore her apart, which is probably why she's waited this long to say anything.
Yeah, I dunno much about Nancy Grace or hln (I don't get that channel up here, I don't think), but a local radio station posted the interview so I gave it a watch. To me, I never saw Jodi as attention seeking and it's not like she presents any new, damning evidence regarding the murder, but just talks about the abuse she suffered from Steven. From what I can see she's being honest about it, which is a departure from the lovesick teddy bear they depict in the show. And obviously it makes me wonder what else he's capable of, and how much the show massaged his character. Doesn't mean he's guilty by any means, but something to think about.
Yeah, I dunno much about Nancy Grace or hln (I don't get that channel up here, I don't think), but a local radio station posted the interview so I gave it a watch. To me, I never saw Jodi as attention seeking and it's not like she presents any new, damning evidence regarding the murder, but just talks about the abuse she suffered from Steven. From what I can see she's being honest about it, which is a departure from the lovesick teddy bear they depict in the show. And obviously it makes me wonder what else he's capable of, and how much the show massaged his character. Doesn't mean he's guilty by any means, but something to think about.
Yeah I didn't get the attention seeking aspect from during the interview. I just know it was mentioned that she had DUI's and issues with her probation in the film. I'm sure that would have been brought up to make her seem like the bad guy and not be a reliable witness.
The thing I think is nuts is how does he keep getting all these girlfriends? The last one he had never even given a hug to until he was transferred to a lower security prison.
Yeah, I dunno much about Nancy Grace or hln (I don't get that channel up here, I don't think), but a local radio station posted the interview so I gave it a watch. To me, I never saw Jodi as attention seeking and it's not like she presents any new, damning evidence regarding the murder, but just talks about the abuse she suffered from Steven. From what I can see she's being honest about it, which is a departure from the lovesick teddy bear they depict in the show. And obviously it makes me wonder what else he's capable of, and how much the show massaged his character. Doesn't mean he's guilty by any means, but something to think about.
Yeah I didn't get the attention seeking aspect from during the interview. I just know it was mentioned that she had DUI's and issues with her probation in the film. I'm sure that would have been brought up to make her seem like the bad guy and not be a reliable witness.
The thing I think is nuts is how does he keep getting all these girlfriends? The last one he had never even given a hug to until he was transferred to a lower security prison.
Actually, her prior DUI's most likely were misdemeanors (at least I know they are in New Jersey), therefore they shouldn't be admissible to impeach her as a witness. This is especially so because DUI has nothing to do with her propensity to fabricate the truth.
"The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call" in... instead of "radio" in... the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4... 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.... This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically STFU about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.
What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme. .........By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ....and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.
None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated... everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right... Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom..... he must have been like.... WTF?! A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder.... "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN" ..... We will see Scott, we will see....................."
"The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call" in... instead of "radio" in... the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4... 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.... This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically STFU about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.
What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme. .........By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ....and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.
None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated... everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right... Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom..... he must have been like.... WTF?! A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder.... "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN" ..... We will see Scott, we will see....................."
This is exactly what I thought in terms of who the killers were. I thought his quote (mentioned in the last sentence here) was the most telling thing in the entire documentary.
Defense attorneys Strang & Buting are having an event in a Milwaukee concert venue discussing this on Friday. I don't have the extra $45 + fees to invest in that (well, I did, but opted for Modest Mouse instead...) but consider it a heads up. There could be some interesting livetweeting or review articles going on in relation to that event.
Post by itrainmonkeys on Aug 12, 2016 16:16:54 GMT -5
Good, he was clearly manipulated.
Brendan Dassey, the "Making a Murderer" subject who was just 17 years old when he was convicted of the murder of Teresa Halbach, has had his convictions overturned.
Dassey was convicted in 2007 to 41 years in prison on first-degree intentional homicide, second-degree sexual assault, and mutilation of a corpse.
John Diedrich of the Journal Sentinel is reporting that Dassey will go free in 90 days if state prosecutors do not refile charges.
According to TMZ, a federal judge in Milwaukee ruled that Dassey's constitutional rights were violated when authorities questioned him without an adult present.
Additionally, the judge said that Dassey's learning disabilities made him more susceptible to coercion by interrogators.
Further, the judge disapproved of the interrogators' use of bluffing during Dassey's questioning. They told the teen at least 21 times that they knew exactly what happened to Halbach. The judge felt that would have had larger than usual effect on Dassey.
Dassey is one of the primary subjects of Netflix's hit true-crime docuseries "Making a Murderer," which tracks the trials of both Dassey and his uncle Steven Avery, who were both convicted for the 2005 murder of Halbach on their family property in Manitowoc County, Wisconsin.
Many who watched "Making a Murderer" were particularly aghast at the treatment of Dassey, who is learning-disabled and whose interrogation with police may have been marred by "interview contamination" — in which police let details slip to potential witnesses or suspects, leading them to believe and repeat certain facts.
He was definitely manipulated, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily innocent.
Possibly but I really feel like he didn't know anything and if he did actually do some part of the murder then they would have had an easier time getting it out of him. They had to literally tell him what to say and kept repeating lies for so long. I'm not sure if Avery did or didn't do it but I felt like Dassey was not involved. What do I know, though?
"MILWAUKEE — The federal judge who overturned the conviction of Brendan Dassey in the case made famous by Making A Murderer ordered Monday that Dassey be freed from prison, under supervision, pending further court developments."