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One of Mr. West’s oldest production trademarks is to raise the pitch of a recognizable song, and on “Yeezus” he does that using Nina Simone’s version of “Strange Fruit,” the chilling song from the 1930s about a lynching. Her austere piano ballad, with Mr. West’s voice computer-tuned into a melody, gives way to a dirge driven by repeated hornlike notes. With the profound history of “Strange Fruit” and the bitter clarity of Mr. West’s new sound, “Blood on the Leaves” could be a perfect setting for a manifesto on race and justice, a sequel to Mr. West’s songs like “Jesus Walks.” But it’s not: the lyrics are about a hookup at a party, an affair destroyed by “the limelight” and, one more time, alimony (a subject Mr. West handled with far more panache years ago in “Gold Digger”). It’s a rehash, a squandered opportunity.
I actually think that is a totally valid criticism. Strange Fruit is a song with a loaded history. Kanye's lyrics are simultaneously banal and vindicative. He's covered this ground before and in more interesting ways. The difference is that he uses a minor key piano riff and a Nina Simone sample to give the song unearned weight.
I mean, really...Nina Simone was such a great performer that using her as a sample is sort of low hanging fruit. You could imbue almost any song with deeper feeling by dropping her pained refrains into the mix. And I think that's pretty much what he did here instead of getting there on his own.
Last Edit: Jun 17, 2013 12:36:22 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Post by nodepression on Jun 17, 2013 12:36:37 GMT -5
It's not like Mac Miller is using a Nina Simon sample here, it's Kanye. I think he's earned enough cred at this point as a producer and a rapper to sample whomever. I don't think he's dabbling in things he doesn't have a complete grasp of to add weight.
And again, the whole "He's covered this ground before" complaint doesn't really carry any weight since he's done race relations also. You're just upset that what he chose to do with a song isn't what you would have done with it.
It's not like Mac Miller is using a Nina Simon sample here, it's Kanye. I think he's earned enough cred at this point as a producer and a rapper to sample whomever. I don't think he's dabbling in things he doesn't have a complete grasp of to add weight.
I'm not saying he can't sample whoever he wants. I'm saying, thoughtful music critics are allowed to make thoughtful observations about how what he's sampling and what he's rapping about don't really match up.
Also, as a lyricist, I really give Kanye very little credit because he doesn't bring a lot of insight to the table. He doesn't move me with his words. He doesn't bring a lot of insight to who he is. In fact, his words often undercut the part of his work that does move me, the actual music. Because everytime he opens his mouth and lays out another underwhelming verse I have to keep from letting my eyes roll out of my head.
Let me put it this way. You know when you're talking to someone about books and all they want to talk about to you is how great at prose Stephen King is? That's how I feel when someone tries to tell me how great a lyricist Kanye is.
And again, the whole "He's covered this ground before" complaint doesn't really carry any weight since he's done race relations also. You're just upset that what he chose to do with a song isn't what you would have done with it.
I am not a musician. I do not approach a song in that way. I approach a song in a "is this good to me" way. And in the case of this song, I'm approaching it from the viewpoint of someone who is fairly familiar with Nina Simone's catalog (especially the era of her career where this cut comes from). And what I'm arguing is her sample adds false gravitas to a song that is essentially another "Kanye complains about biznatches" song.
Last Edit: Jun 17, 2013 15:25:07 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Post by bansheebeat on Jun 17, 2013 16:58:47 GMT -5
Finally got to listen. It's great, but wouldn't say it's better than MBDTF which is imo his best album as a whole.
I'd put it in the same league as 808's. I love it a whole lot, but just can't compare it to the rest of his work.
EDIT: New Slaves definitely is a standout for me. Love the production on it. Black Skinhead lost some appeal from the SNL show though. Blood on the Leaves sounds like a Hudson Mohawke track. I can't find a list of who produced what but I'm curious to see how many Kanye did solo production on. And Bound 2 was a great throwback to the classic Kanye sound.
Post by itrainmonkeys on Jun 18, 2013 0:31:49 GMT -5
Well, well, well. Yeezus is now officially available for download on Kanye’s website. And above is a promo video inspired by a scene from American Psycho that features Scott Disick in Christian Bale’s role and Jonathan Cheban in Jared Leto’s role.
So every song that has ever used a sample Ahould have had a central theme that mirrored the original song?
No. But you should probably be aware that sampling THAT song with THAT history is going to draw some criticism when you use the sample to complain about an ex in a particularly shallow, vindictive way.
I don't know how else to explain this but Strange Fruit has a very specific history that is just really hard to ignore. It's a protest song that drew attention to the lynchings that were occurring in the south. And then you bring in THAT song with THAT singer, Nina also had a very specific context, and it brings a gravitas to the song that is really hard to ignore for me. And then he just spends the entire song bitching about his horrible ex. It's just a thematic letdown. It's like sampling A Change Is Gonna Come in a song about trying to get a dollar changed out for bus fare.
In other words, if you know the context of the song he's sampling, it's just hard not to find the song fundamentally problematic.
It's not like Mac Miller is using a Nina Simon sample here, it's Kanye. I think he's earned enough cred at this point as a producer and a rapper to sample whomever. I don't think he's dabbling in things he doesn't have a complete grasp of to add weight.
I'm not saying he can't sample whoever he wants. I'm saying, thoughtful music critics are allowed to make thoughtful observations about how what he's sampling and what he's rapping about don't really match up.
Do they really need to? That's kind of at the heart of sampling - taking an element of someone else's work, and then working within those confines to put your own spin on it. There's not much creativity in sampling a beat to make your entire song just like the one you sampled. Frankly, that song's already been made - why make it twice? That would put it in some weird no man's land between a very lazy cover version and just straight karaoke. In the early days of hip hop, DJs would sample the break from disco records, and MCs would rap over it - they would not sing disco-style vocals over it, because what would be the point? It's the same reason none of the songs on the Grey Album sound like the Beatles songs they sample. I'm of the opinion that if someone can pull it off well enough, then nothing is completely sacred. I would also argue there is often more creativity in coming up with a great sample or samples and making them work, versus coming up with something "original" that sounds just like everything else out there.
Also, as a lyricist, I really give Kanye very little credit because he doesn't bring a lot of insight to the table. He doesn't move me with his words. He doesn't bring a lot of insight to who he is. In fact, his words often undercut the part of his work that does move me, the actual music. Because everytime he opens his mouth and lays out another underwhelming verse I have to keep from letting my eyes roll out of my head.
A lot of great artists / songs bring little to no insight into who they are personally. A more personal song isn't necessarily a better one, or vice-versa. Sometimes there's overlap, and if it works, then great - but not every song needs to be a heart-spilling mini autobiography.
I am not a musician. I do not approach a song in that way. I approach a song in a "is this good to me" way. And in the case of this song, I'm approaching it from the viewpoint of someone who is fairly familiar with Nina Simone's catalog (especially the era of her career where this cut comes from). And what I'm arguing is her sample adds false gravitas to a song that is essentially another "Kanye complains about biznatches" song.
Umm, okay? This is a decently-sized board of some very avid music fans; don't think you're the only person on here who enjoys Nina Simone. Samples aren't necessarily about gravitas, they're about creating a mood or an atmosphere.
FTR, I am not necessarily defending Kanye. I thought MBDTF was one of the best hip hop albums of the past ten years... when Kanye wasn't singing on it. His ego often gets in the way of the song itself, which is basically my main complaint about his latest as well. But while I think his delivery is mediocre and his lyrics are often asinine, that doesn't automatically negate his skill as a producer. I mean, he'd hardly be the first popular musician with an ego the size of Jupiter, would he?
Do they really need to? That's kind of at the heart of sampling - taking an element of someone else's work, and then working within those confines to put your own spin on it. There's not much creativity in sampling a beat to make your entire song just like the one you sampled. Frankly, that song's already been made - why make it twice? That would put it in some weird no man's land between a very lazy cover version and just straight karaoke. In the early days of hip hop, DJs would sample the break from disco records, and MCs would rap over it - they would not sing disco-style vocals over it, because what would be the point? It's the same reason none of the songs on the Grey Album sound like the Beatles songs they sample. I'm of the opinion that if someone can pull it off well enough, then nothing is completely sacred. I would also argue there is often more creativity in coming up with a great sample or samples and making them work, versus coming up with something "original" that sounds just like everything else out there.
I'm just going to take this chunk of your commentary because frankly the latter stuff doesn't really take into account what I wrote earlier about my views on the album (namely I think its some of his best production work with some of his worst lyrical content). That said...
I'm calling total and utter malarky that context doesn't matter in sampling because you're making something new. And it's kind of a shallow reading of what I wrote to think what I meant is "Kanye needs to write a rap song about a lynching if he uses a Strange Fruit sample". And the whole Gregy Album example is not a good one because the context of what Danger Mouse was doing was right up front in the title which might as well be "I'm mashing up Jay-Z's Black Album with the Beatles White Album". It's right there up front not hiding.
Further, this isn't some sly attempt to cut up the sample and hide it. He's putting it right up front in the song and leaning heavy on it to create the mood of his song and lend it emotional gravity. He even tries to imitate that pain in his own vocals later in the song.
You can't strip a song of the context in which it was written and performed especially when you're leaning heavy on a sample. It becomes the subtext to your song. And in the case, the subtext sort of overpowers the content of his song if you're aware of it. Which is why I think the NYT criticism on the song is actually valid.
Look man...I get it. We live in the age of the internet. People rip off other people's art for stylistic purposes more than ever. But back in the day, artists got critically held up to the fire and grilled on it. It's why Led Zeppelin got mostly negative reviews. And while you can say the music is good anyway, I think it's worth having the conversation because otherwise we're a bunch of cultural zombies spouting the same pitchfork approved opinions and missing the actual content of what the song is saying.
Last Edit: Jun 18, 2013 16:34:41 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Post by EthnicallyCrimean98476 on Jun 18, 2013 17:22:10 GMT -5
Pitchfork gave my opinions a 5.8
"While syntax and grammar are generally sound, Ned's opinions ultimately become entrapped in a bizarre dichotomy of either Detroit fetishism or altered mental states, rendering most mundane at best."
I said this in another thread too, but this feels like a sequel to a film that was a masterpiece, isn't necessarily a masterpiece when compared to the first, but is just totally artistically on point nonetheless.
"It’s only led me to complete awesomeness at all times. It’s only led me to awesome truth and awesomeness. Beauty, truth, awesomeness. That’s all it is. "
Another great line : "Yeah. I love the fact that I’m bad at [things], you know what I’m saying? I’m forever the 35-year-old 5-year-old. I’m forever the 5-year-old of something. "
Interview is amazing. Also, I need to listen to this album more.
Post by carl brutananadilewski on Jun 21, 2013 10:50:43 GMT -5
"Bound 2" and "Black Skinhead" are 2 of the best songs he's ever made. As for the album as a whole, for me it's definitely after MBDTF but somewhere between College Dropout and Late Registration.
Post by nodepression on Jun 23, 2013 5:03:18 GMT -5
Aside from that Michael Douglas line which will age about as well as "I'm The King of Leon-a Lewis," it's real good. When he clears space towards the middle and just lets a clap/hi-hat hit, so great.
Aside from that Michael Douglas line which will age about as well as "I'm The King of Leon-a Lewis," it's real good. When he clears space towards the middle and just lets a clap/hi-hat hit, so great.
Aside from that Michael Douglas line which will age about as well as "I'm The King of Leon-a Lewis," it's real good. When he clears space towards the middle and just lets a clap/hi-hat hit, so great.
'Swaghili' screams timeless.
I thought "300 like the Romans" was the worst line on the album. Spartans are Greek. I guess he just wanted to rhyme something with Trojans.