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I'm pretty indifferent towards LeBron as a fan, but I don't really get the vitriol about the flop. Basketball players flop constantly when they're barely contacted; it was a smart move by him.
Simply put: "best players" are supposed to hold themselves to a golden standard, which started with Bill Russel and is the reason the sports world LOL's at Wilt Chamberlain's 100 instead of building him monuments and sh*t.
BTW, as a back story, I did this same thing with Jordan. I was a Jordan fan as early I remember ever watching basketball. I'm honestly not one of the biggest basketball fans, either, but I can watch Jordan or Lebron play all day. It's just how I am, I guess. I watched Jordan for at least the tail end of his first three-peat during the 91-93 seasons from ages 6-8, and stopped caring (as best as I can remember), after his first retirement. When he returned to three-peat again in the 96-98 season from ages 11-13, I was there by my tv watching WGN. I also watched Space Jam on repeat, and loved his years with the Olympics teams. There were a good four years of not caring about basketball when he left for good until Lebron came along.
Am I just attracted to greatness? I suppose so. I almost stopped caring about professional golf, a game I play fairly often, when Tiger fell off the map a few years ago. Now I'm back to being glued to the screen for every tournament he plays in. I don't even watch tournaments he doesn't play in, unless its a Sunday afternoon and the scores are close.
I've always been a Saints fan, through all the awful, awful, awful years. My favorite player as a child was the Cajun Cannon, Bobby Hebert. This was not an example of greatness, but I'm getting to that part. Football is a sport that I've watched every weekend for my entire life, and with the Saints I had actually a "local" team. New Orleans was only about an hour and half away. But I will admit, while they were my team, I would have "back up" teams based on who was good each year and who was on my fantasy teams. I was reborn as a Saints fanatic when Drew Brees and Coach Payton showed up in 2006. After this past season, I finally understand what it is like to be a true, hardcore fan of a team that isn't winning. It was tough. I'm used to excellence. But I still loved every minute of it.
So you can ask me, why are you such a bandwagoner? Why don't you like the Hornets? Well, in most cases, I became fans of these people from the very beginning. I wonder if perhaps I wanted to be able to say one day "Why yes, I WAS there (in front of the tv) when the world witnessed sports history." I don't like the Hornets because they've always sucked, and because I'm a Lebron fan. Honestly, I am pretty interested in them being the Pelicans. It's another chance for me to catch something from the jump. They can be my "backup" team.
I became a Heat fan about an hour after The Decision. That does not make me a bandwagon fan, in my opinion, because I've been a Lebron fan since he was in high school. Lebron is only a few months older than I am, and when he was getting all of his high school senior hype, I was also a high school senior. I've followed him ever sense. I was a Cavalier fan for all seven years he was there. I had hardly watched the NBA at all since Jordan retired until Lebron came around. I stuck by him for season after season of progress with the Cavs. There was the unbelievable comeback wins against Detroit to make it to the NBA Finals. There was the season that he lead the Cavs to the best regular season record in the NBA with a team that did the opposite the next year without him. And when he decided to leave for Miami, there was about an hour where I didn't know how to feel. I was unsure whether to be disappointed, or excited that he finally would have a real shot at winning that title. It's been great being a Heat fan. Last post season was incredible. Being down in the Celtics series, I was sure this was just another year of getting so close and not quite making it. And then the great series against the Thunder, capped off with absolute elation by Lebron as the final seconds ticked down. I think it would be fun for them to be pushed a little harder this year, but I can also be happy with them easily winning another championship.
Uh...yeah it does. You didn't start rooting for them until they were good again (when they signed LeBron).
See, you are focusing on the wrong part of the equation. I've never strayed from Lebron since before he was in the NBA. I've been a Lebron fan for over ten years now, never faltering. If he changes teams again, I'm going to change teams with him. That is about as loyal as it gets.
Post by Roo'adelphia on May 14, 2013 12:53:24 GMT -5
@jakicker2 So your not an NBA fan, or a team fan, or a Heat fan. Your a LeBron fan. Thats ok, but dont say your a fan of a team if you would jump ship as soon as LBJ gets traded. You are a bandwagon Heat fan, and a loyal LeBron fan. If LeBron gave up basketball and went to the Oakland Raiders as a TE who would be your second favorite player in the NBA? Your new favorite team? Would you even watch anymore?
Because no one can admire Bill Russel except for C's fans?
I was commenting more on the arbitrary/unwritten things that fans think superstars should and shouldn't do. The Russell/Wilt reference was just sort of a coincidence.
The Saints were still my team, but I also would watch teams that were winning. I wanted to enjoy the playoffs. Everyone eventually picks a playoff team to root for, otherwise the playoffs are less exciting.
Throughout that paragraph you quoted, I talked about how I was a fan through all the horrible years. My favorite player was mediocre. If you are only rooting for your horrible team and not paying attention to the actual playoff picture and eventual playoffs, what are you doing to yourself? I am a fan of the NFL as a whole, and the Saints are and have always been my number one team. When Drew Brees and Coach Payton joined the Saints, their style of play was more exciting and they won more games. I became a bigger fan of them. I don't see how anything you said and anything I said are at all different. You basically repeated everything I had already said when you talked about the Clippers. What am I, or you, missing here?
Because no one can admire Bill Russel except for C's fans?
I was commenting more on the arbitrary/unwritten things that fans think superstars should and shouldn't do. The Russell/Wilt reference was just sort of a coincidence.
Flopping is a written rule, though. Just because it's not called doesn't mean it wasn't wrong.
And even if it wasn't, is A-Rod screaming "I Got IT!!!" at an opposing team's 3B okay? No rule against it, right? I realize not everyone does this, but at the time he was considered the top guy in the game (or close to it) and you simply don't expect guys capable of dominating a sport with their god given talents to take shortcuts and use cheap tricks to win games.
@jakicker2 So your not an NBA fan, or a team fan, or a Heat fan. Your a LeBron fan. Thats ok, but dont say your a fan of a team if you would jump ship as soon as LBJ gets traded. You are a bandwagon Heat fan, and a loyal LeBron fan. If LeBron gave up basketball and went to the Oakland Raiders as a TE who would be your second favorite player in the NBA? Your new favorite team? Would you even watch anymore?
You are all pointing out things that I can't understand about sports fans. Everyone thinks you have to be a fan of a team and never falter and that is the ONLY way to be a sports fan. I definitely am a Lebron fan. I am a Heat fan because he is the team that Lebron plays for. If Lebron is on the bench, I still cheer for them to win. I don't only cheer when he has the ball. If he has a horrible game, but they win, I am happy but I know that the haters will start coming out so it's not as satisfying. In the end, the Heat are Lebron's team. They are an extension of him. The NBA is the league he plays in. It is an extension of him.
I suppose since everyone else's definition of being a sports fan is to only like one team and not look at things from a different angle, then I have to be able to accept being called a bandwagon fan by y'all's definition of a bandwagon fan. But, as I said originally, IN MY OPINION I am not a bandwagon fan because my loyalty never faltered.
In my definition, someone who became a Lebron fan once he won a title or won his first MVP, those people are bandwagon fans.
Are you looking for a relative answer here? I'd say the Bulls are doing pretty damn good, showing their fan base nothing but the utmost respect in playing out these playoffs. They've found a valuable 2 guard in Jimmy Butler, and if they amnesty Boozer (as they should) then a starting five next year of Rose, Butler, Deng, Gibson (If you're feeling lucky, throw Love in here), Noah looks pretty damn good. So yeah, all in all pretty awesome.
They looked great last night.
So your idea of a sensible comeback was to not address a single thing in my post?
I was commenting more on the arbitrary/unwritten things that fans think superstars should and shouldn't do. The Russell/Wilt reference was just sort of a coincidence.
Flopping is a written rule, though. Just because it's not called doesn't mean it wasn't wrong.
If that website is correct, a total of eight players were fined $5,000 each for flopping so far this year, including playoffs.
If you have the opportunity to get a player ejected for exaggerating the result of his stupid act with the only downside being "Uh oh, I might get warned by the League Office or maybe even fined $5,000", it's a smart move. I don't care if it's LeBron James or a scrub.
So basically, you abandon the entire concept of basketball fandom. It's a team game, where the only thing that matters is W's and rings (see any greatest player of all-time debate for validation). Instead, you've chosen to minimize the entire game to one guy, and then neglect the other players on the team. So really, you're not a Heat fan at all. And thus, you've proven why Miami fans aren't really fans to begin with. There's no element of loyalty to the city, players, or organization. There's only being a part of "LeBron's gang."
He flopped to get a backup center ejected. He's the reigning MVP. That's not bush league to you?
Even as a Bulls fan, I somewhat tip my cap to LeBron on this one. That's what being the best is about; knowing that no one can touch you, and exploiting that to the max. MJ and Reggie Miller would have had no problem following suit. MJ used his trash talk and skill more than flopping, but LeBron is just copying the "Yeah I'm above you. You know it. I know it. There's nothing you can do about it" style that MJ perfected.
Even as a Bulls fan, I somewhat tip my cap to LeBron on this one. That's what being the best is about; knowing that no one can touch you, and exploiting that to the max. MJ and Reggie Miller would have had no problem following suit. MJ used his trash talk and skill more than flopping, but LeBron is just copying the "Yeah I'm above you. You know it. I know it. There's nothing you can do about it" style that MJ perfected.
So, Lebron is the NBA's Sidney Crosby?
MICHAEL JORDAN would have no problem flopping? The most psychotically competitive person in the history of sports, maybe anything, would have flopped?
As a Knicks fan who Jordan made cry multiple times in the 90's, I resent that line of thinking.
How in god's name can you compare Jordan trash talking and having more skill than anyone else ever did to LeBron's 280 pound frame acting like it was shot with a potato gun because Nazr Muhammad shoved him?
He flopped to get a backup center ejected. He's the reigning MVP. That's not bush league to you?
It's a superstar taking advantage of a situation knowing that he'll get away with more than most other players. Should MJ feel bad for pushing off on Russell in Game 6 in '98?
Dang it's taking a really long time to load whenever I reply for some reason. tackitt beat me to the punch.
Even as a Bulls fan, I somewhat tip my cap to LeBron on this one. That's what being the best is about; knowing that no one can touch you, and exploiting that to the max. MJ and Reggie Miller would have had no problem following suit. MJ used his trash talk and skill more than flopping, but LeBron is just copying the "Yeah I'm above you. You know it. I know it. There's nothing you can do about it" style that MJ perfected.
So, Lebron is the NBA's Sidney Crosby?
MICHAEL JORDAN would have no problem flopping? The most psychotically competitive person in the history of sports, maybe anything, would have flopped?
As a Knicks fan who Jordan made cry multiple times in the 90's, I resent that line of thinking.
How in god's name can you compare Jordan trash talking and having more skill than anyone else ever did to LeBron's 280 pound frame acting like it was shot with a potato gun because Nazr Muhammad shoved him?
No, I didn't say that Michael Jordan would have no problem flopping. The most psychotically competitive person in the history of sports, maybe anything, would not have flopped. He would have used that ultra-competitive trash talk and frustrating skill to work the same kind of reactions. That's what my post said Flanz. And, yes I agree, it's a b*tch move by LeBron, but a smart move nonetheless. He's not going to lose sleep knowing that someone would consider him "soft" if it's for the greater benefit of the team. Getting Nazr thrown out in that situation is a huge moment in that game. He knows the Bulls are short-handed, he knows the refs favor him, he's going to exploit that. And, that move is still reaping him benefits because the bigs had to play that much longer, and wear down that much more, as a result of Nazr not being in the game. If you saw the game last night, you saw how the fatigue factor is looming large.
Alright, if people continue to not pay attention to anything I'm saying and misconstrue my words, I'm done trying to explain myself. I already said I like the Heat. They are Lebron's team. I enjoy watching all of the players on the team, and I like all of the players on the team. I like watching them win as a team.
Everyone has a favorite player! I'm not talking about anything crazy here. I like the Heat far more than I liked Cleveland. When Lebron was in Cleveland, you really could make the argument that I was a Lebron fan and not a Cavs fan. But I like how the Heat plays in their entirety.
If it's going to make y'all feel better I'll call myself a Heat bandwagoner, whatever
Also, for the record, I don't think LeBron flopped. He wasn't looking and a gigantic man shoved him. He made an athletic move to take the push and land in a way that wouldn't hurt himself. I suppose he could've tried to absorb the push and catch his balance, possibly tweaking a knee or ankle or getting a little whiplash. But that is how basketball players have learned how to take a hit and fall onto a hard ass floor without hurting themselves. I watch soccer all the time, I know what a flop looks like
Alright, if people continue to not pay attention to anything I'm saying and misconstrue my words, I'm done trying to explain myself. I already said I like the Heat. They are Lebron's team. I enjoy watching all of the players on the team, and I like all of the players on the team. I like watching them win as a team.
Everyone has a favorite player! I'm not talking about anything crazy here. I like the Heat far more than I liked Cleveland. When Lebron was in Cleveland, you really could make the argument that I was a Lebron fan and not a Cavs fan. But I like how the Heat plays in their entirety.
If it's going to make y'all feel better I'll call myself a Heat bandwagoner, whatever
I genuinely apologize. It's really not that serious of a topic to me, and honestly for your sake, I wish LeBron would have gone somewhere other than Miami. It's hard to respect that fan base in any capacity, in any sport. People don't move to Miami and think, "I can't wait to be immersed in this rich sports history." They move there and if it's the cool thing to do at the time (LeBron with the Heat, Marlins in WS in '03, etc.) then they find time to support the team. If he would have gone almost ANYWHERE else I would have had more respect for him. Knicks? No problem. At least then you'd be able to immerse yourself in a rich history with a die-hard fan base.
Post by Roo'adelphia on May 14, 2013 14:21:04 GMT -5
In the end, the Heat are Lebron's team. They are an extension of him. The NBA is the league he plays in. It is an extension of him.
In the end, The NBA has a TEAM called the Heat which LeBron CHOSE to go play for that will be around after LeBron retires. If all goes according to LeBron, Wade, and Bosh's plan they will retire with "Not one, not 2, blahh blahh" and leave the heat with a squad of late round draft picks when all is said and done. You root for the Heat to get gold on LeBrons finger, not a banner on the ceiling. Will you go back to kinda rooting for the Heat not really though cuz the next big thing in the NBA just got drafted to the Timberwolves?
Also with Playoffs, I dont know about anyone else but if my team is out of the playoffs I can care less what is going on in the post season. (Football excluded because ill watch The Superbowl). I also exclude football because there is only one game a week compared to the rigorus season of the MLB, NBA, and NHL where you can almost root, cheer, drink yourself silly as you cheer for your team every day for the longer part of the year.
Alright, if people continue to not pay attention to anything I'm saying and misconstrue my words, I'm done trying to explain myself. I already said I like the Heat. They are Lebron's team. I enjoy watching all of the players on the team, and I like all of the players on the team. I like watching them win as a team.
Everyone has a favorite player! I'm not talking about anything crazy here. I like the Heat far more than I liked Cleveland. When Lebron was in Cleveland, you really could make the argument that I was a Lebron fan and not a Cavs fan. But I like how the Heat plays in their entirety.
If it's going to make y'all feel better I'll call myself a Heat bandwagoner, whatever
I genuinely apologize. It's really not that serious of a topic to me, and honestly for your sake, I wish LeBron would have gone somewhere other than Miami. It's hard to respect that fan base in any capacity, in any sport. People don't move to Miami and think, "I can't wait to be immersed in this rich sports history." They move there and if it's the cool thing to do at the time (LeBron with the Heat, Marlins in WS in '03, etc.) then they find time to support the team. If he would have gone almost ANYWHERE else I would have had more respect for him. Knicks? No problem. At least then you'd be able to immerse yourself in a rich history with a die-hard fan base.
Hahahah one of the dumbest things I've read all day, thank you so much for this. I'll be laughing at you all the way to the finals.
Alright, if people continue to not pay attention to anything I'm saying and misconstrue my words, I'm done trying to explain myself. I already said I like the Heat. They are Lebron's team. I enjoy watching all of the players on the team, and I like all of the players on the team. I like watching them win as a team.
Everyone has a favorite player! I'm not talking about anything crazy here. I like the Heat far more than I liked Cleveland. When Lebron was in Cleveland, you really could make the argument that I was a Lebron fan and not a Cavs fan. But I like how the Heat plays in their entirety.
If it's going to make y'all feel better I'll call myself a Heat bandwagoner, whatever
I genuinely apologize. It's really not that serious of a topic to me, and honestly for your sake, I wish LeBron would have gone somewhere other than Miami. It's hard to respect that fan base in any capacity, in any sport. People don't move to Miami and think, "I can't wait to be immersed in this rich sports history." They move there and if it's the cool thing to do at the time (LeBron with the Heat, Marlins in WS in '03, etc.) then they find time to support the team. If he would have gone almost ANYWHERE else I would have had more respect for him. Knicks? No problem. At least then you'd be able to immerse yourself in a rich history with a die-hard fan base.
Tackitt, I'm sorry I sort of blew up there. You were the third person to make a comment against me, so I took it out on you. My bad. What you said about my fandom makes sense, and I think you made a good point. Sorry again
MICHAEL JORDAN would have no problem flopping? The most psychotically competitive person in the history of sports, maybe anything, would have flopped?
As a Knicks fan who Jordan made cry multiple times in the 90's, I resent that line of thinking.
How in god's name can you compare Jordan trash talking and having more skill than anyone else ever did to LeBron's 280 pound frame acting like it was shot with a potato gun because Nazr Muhammad shoved him?
No, I didn't say that Michael Jordan would have no problem flopping. The most psychotically competitive person in the history of sports, maybe anything, would not have flopped. He would have used that ultra-competitive trash talk and frustrating skill to work the same kind of reactions. That's what my post said Flanz. And, yes I agree, it's a b*tch move by LeBron, but a smart move nonetheless. He's not going to lose sleep knowing that someone would consider him "soft" if it's for the greater benefit of the team. Getting Nazr thrown out in that situation is a huge moment in that game. He knows the Bulls are short-handed, he knows the refs favor him, he's going to exploit that. And, that move is still reaping him benefits because the bigs had to play that much longer, and wear down that much more, as a result of Nazr not being in the game. If you saw the game last night, you saw how the fatigue factor is looming large.
I predicted the Heat to win this series even before the Bulls players started getting hurt.
I don't know how much clearer I can be than this: LeBron doesn't need to flop. He is the best living basketball player. There isn't a single player who could enter a game and have the impact LeBron James has.
So why does he feel the need to play the game like JJ Barea?
Hahahah one of the dumbest things I've read all day, thank you so much for this. I'll be laughing at you all the way to the finals.
Hey man, good for you that you're in the extreme minority of die-hard Miami fans. Your kind maybe stretches into the hundreds, congratulations. You can't tell me that Miami is anywhere near as good a sports town as the vast majority of metropolitan areas in the United States. Definitely not top 10, and probably barely squeaks into the top 20.
jakicker Tackitt, I'm sorry I sort of blew up there. You were the third person to make a comment against me, so I took it out on you. My bad. What you said about my fandom makes sense, and I think you made a good point. Sorry again
Don't even sweat it. It's an internet message board, shiz happens. I should have articulated it better the first time around. If anything it's a fun discussion to have.
Flanz I understand what you're saying. And I agree, it's a soft move for a guy that can dominate like that to flop the way he does. But here's my point, which still remains: If I'm playing you in any game, I want to win the damn game. I don't care how easily everyone thinks I'm supposed to 'dominate' the game, I want to win at whatever cost. If that means that I get in your head and you commit a stupid foul, and get yourself kicked out of the game, fine by me. I didn't see anyone calling for LeBron's head on a platter for flopping in Cleveland, and as far as I remember he was much more straight up in his time there. Here's the thing though, he didn't win in Cleveland. If that's what it takes to win now, so be it. I hate it just as much as you do, but that's the way competition goes. Not to pour salt in the wound, but that's exactly the type of stuff Miller pulled on Starks, and it worked.
Hahahah one of the dumbest things I've read all day, thank you so much for this. I'll be laughing at you all the way to the finals.
Hey man, good for you that you're in the extreme minority of die-hard Miami fans. Your kind maybe stretches into the hundreds, congratulations. You can't tell me that Miami is anywhere near as good a sports town as the vast majority of metropolitan areas in the United States. Definitely not top 10, and probably barely squeaks into the top 20.
jakicker Tackitt, I'm sorry I sort of blew up there. You were the third person to make a comment against me, so I took it out on you. My bad. What you said about my fandom makes sense, and I think you made a good point. Sorry again
Don't even sweat it. It's an internet message board, shiz happens. I should have articulated it better the first time around. If anything it's a fun discussion to have.
Flanz I understand what you're saying. And I agree, it's a soft move for a guy that can dominate like that to flop the way he does. But here's my point, which still remains: If I'm playing you in any game, I want to win the damn game. I don't care how easily everyone thinks I'm supposed to 'dominate' the game, I want to win at whatever cost. If that means that I get in your head and you commit a stupid foul, and get yourself kicked out of the game, fine by me. I didn't see anyone calling for LeBron's head on a platter for flopping in Cleveland, and as far as I remember he was much more straight up in his time there. Here's the thing though, he didn't win in Cleveland. If that's what it takes to win now, so be it. I hate it just as much as you do, but that's the way competition goes. Not to pour salt in the wound, but that's exactly the type of stuff Miller pulled on Starks, and it worked.
Sorry for being such a weenie though. I'm passionate about my home team and although I don't live in Miami, I live 20 minutes north of there in Fort Lauderdale which still makes The Heat my home team. Miami does kind of suck though but it's definitely not the shiz hole that television and internet people that have never been to Florida make it out to be. You can't blame me for getting pissed off because EVERYONE hates The Heat and especially Florida and it just gets to you after a while. It's nice to have a home team that finally does good (I'm a huge Dolphins fan and they've sucked for 10+ years) and you get to brag about it.