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Post by RadioSpirit on May 2, 2012 17:37:35 GMT -5
Dance at least focused on the more interesting characters. The events in the North were interesting, and Jon is always a good character to read, although Bran can be annoying.
Tyrion went through some dark times, but he's still Tyrion, and I enjoyed reading about his adventures.
And Dany just did what she's done throughout the entire series: make no progress towards Westeros.
Jon Snow's narrative tears a page straight out of Julius Caesar. Dany, as you said, goes absolutely nowhere, which was very frustrating and then all progress she had made is more or less undone. And Tyrion moves around inside of barrels and on pig-back. But what really annoyed me was the lack of definitive story arc. It was really all over the place. The last 300 pages should have been in a separate book IMO. Not to mention the plot-twist that is borderline shark-jumping. I mean really how many characters are going to come back from the dead?
with FFC I knew ahead of time that none of the fan favorites like Jon, Tyrion, or Dany were featured so I had braced myself. The pacing dragged on for more than 2/3 of the book but it more or less all come together in the end and had more satisfying conclusions, while DWD ended all of its story-lines on cliffhangers. Plus all of the FFC character narratives to me moved in more believable directions with less eye-rolling than DWD.
Really it all just comes down to how it was published. What Martin should have done: chop off the last third of DWD and move it to the next book, and then edit out about 150 from the combined manuscript of FFC and DWD and publish it under one spine. It still would have been the worst of the series just because of the down-time, being a transitional from one main story arc to the second. I think if I go back and reread it, i'll try to read them in tandem.
and also I hate how the Stark children were barely in either of them. Bran and Sansa had 3 or 4 chapters, while Arya had 6. If you had asked me in Book 1, I would have thought they'd end up the series' main protagonists. I'm hoping Martin is putting them on the backburner so they can grow up or something and saving them for something big.
last night's episode was a great one. The first 7 minutes, although very different from the book, were fantastic. Wouldn't be surprised if Alfie Allen as Theon was nominated for an Emmy. (Fun Fact: did you know he is Lily Allen's brother?)
also, Roose Bolton had mentioned to Robb his son to deal with Theon. Guess that means we're definitely getting some Ramsay Snow next season.
Really didn't like the ending with the dragons getting stolen. Don't recall that at all from Clash of Kings, and don't know where they are trying to go with that.
So, Season 2 of GoT is basically a big fat "You know nothing, ASOIAF Readers"
I am just about through with the show at this point to be honest. I was looking for a pretty faithful retelling of the story, and I feel I am not getting it this season. There is no reason to screw with one of the best stories I have ever read.
So, Season 2 of GoT is basically a big fat "You know nothing, ASOIAF Readers"
I am just about through with the show at this point to be honest. I was looking for a pretty faithful retelling of the story, and I feel I am not getting it this season. There is no reason to screw with one of the best stories I have ever read.
It really is kind of shocking how Season 1 was such a loyal and close adaptation, while Season 2 is doing the bare minimum. As great as last night's episode was, very little of it followed the book.
Someone on the FB said it best. "The destination is still the same, but the journey they are taking is different." And that is what, for the readers, is frustrating because the journey is what makes it fun and enjoyable.
Aw, ya'll are making me nervous about watching the second season.
jpbrez, I hope the destination is the same, but with HBO, you honestly never know. They changed True Blood so much from the books that it's not even fair to consider them the same. I have to look at them as two separate entities. I hope this doesn't happen for Game of Thrones.
Post by The Original Wolfman Jess on May 7, 2012 11:45:43 GMT -5
GOT (The show) is turning into fantasy soft core porn at this point. When you are taking out wonderful characters, and losing great scenes from characters to make room for more gay sex and gratuitous nudity you have really lost your way.
So, Season 2 of GoT is basically a big fat "You know nothing, ASOIAF Readers"
I am just about through with the show at this point to be honest. I was looking for a pretty faithful retelling of the story, and I feel I am not getting it this season. There is no reason to screw with one of the best stories I have ever read.
There are plenty of reasons (budget, time constraints, things not translating well to the screen) for it. Obviously it bothers you that it's not as faithful as you expected but I don't think they're doing it just to screw with the story. Almost nothing is faithfully re-told when adapting works from one medium to another. It sucks that you feel this way but I'm loving the show and can't wait for more. I wouldn't consider it "fantasy softcore porn" since most scenes with nudity also have something going on that is furthering the storyline or delivering exposition.
Aw, ya'll are making me nervous about watching the second season.
jpbrez, I hope the destination is the same, but with HBO, you honestly never know. They changed True Blood so much from the books that it's not even fair to consider them the same. I have to look at them as two separate entities. I hope this doesn't happen for Game of Thrones.
Despite how much they are straying in season 2, the show is still very high quality and one of the best show's on TV right now. And the stuff they do include from the books they mostly do very well. The King's Landing uprising from last night was very spot-on IMO.
jpbrez, I hope the destination is the same, but with HBO, you honestly never know. They changed True Blood so much from the books that it's not even fair to consider them the same. I have to look at them as two separate entities. I hope this doesn't happen for Game of Thrones.
Shows like True Blood and Dexter just got their initial ideas from the first book in their respective series but never planned on following those storylines exactly. Even Justified comes from novels that change a good amount of things.
Game of Thrones will change some aspects but they still plan on following the storylines of the books. That was always the plan as opposed to the other shows that only took the initial idea/story and maybe a few other elements.
I am just about through with the show at this point to be honest. I was looking for a pretty faithful retelling of the story, and I feel I am not getting it this season. There is no reason to screw with one of the best stories I have ever read.
There are plenty of reasons (budget, time constraints, things not translating well to the screen) for it. Obviously it bothers you that it's not as faithful as you expected but I don't think they're doing it just to screw with the story. Almost nothing is faithfully re-told when adapting works from one medium to another. It sucks that you feel this way but I'm loving the show and can't wait for more. I wouldn't consider it "fantasy softcore porn" since most scenes with nudity also have something going on that is furthering the storyline or delivering exposition.
I just want to know WHY with the 2nd season they are taking so many liberties to stray from the original story, when they followed Book 1 so accurately. Given how most of the actors in this show are no-names, I really don't think adding a few more to the cast would have blown their budget or anything.
I've gathered already that you haven't read the books, which is fine. (as i've said earlier: As a stand-alone, this is still high-quality tv), and I agree that having some extra t&a doesn't necessarily make this soft-core porn (although I do agree with Jess and others that some particular scenes like the s&m scene were very unnecessary). But the thing is the stuff they are writing out would NOT under any circumstances (budget, time-contraints, or awkward translating) be hard to adapt to screen. Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords both have great pacing and could easily translate on their own as the first book did so well.
I really thought the whole point of making this a TV series and not big-screen films was so they can include everything from the books and not have to make major rewrites like in Lord of the Rings.
Are the HBO execs bullying the writers into changing the story for more t*tties and sex? Or do some of the actors have inflated egos and demand more screen-time (seriously why is Aidan Gillen (Littlefinger) billed 3rd in the opening credits and randomly just appear in EVERY episode while Varys, someone with a much bigger presence in Clash of Kings than Littlefinger, hardly appears at all).
To me, it just seems that after the success and good word-of-mouth of Season 1, HBO was just like 'OK we have a hit now lets get super-involved with the production to ensure we can sustain interest with an audience over however long we feel like running this show."
sorry for the cynical rant, not trying to take anything out on you ITM, but I strongly feel that outside of the Battle of the Blackwater (which hasn't happened yet) nothing in Clash of Kings would have been unadaptable from any realistic or unrealistic factor.
There are plenty of reasons (budget, time constraints, things not translating well to the screen) for it. Obviously it bothers you that it's not as faithful as you expected but I don't think they're doing it just to screw with the story. Almost nothing is faithfully re-told when adapting works from one medium to another. It sucks that you feel this way but I'm loving the show and can't wait for more. I wouldn't consider it "fantasy softcore porn" since most scenes with nudity also have something going on that is furthering the storyline or delivering exposition.
I just want to know WHY with the 2nd season they are taking so many liberties to stray from the original story, when they followed Book 1 so accurately. Given how most of the actors in this show are no-names, I really don't think adding a few more to the cast would have blown their budget or anything.
I've gathered already that you haven't read the books, which is fine. (as i've said earlier: As a stand-alone, this is still high-quality tv), and I agree that having some extra t&a doesn't necessarily make this soft-core porn (although I do agree with Jess and others that some particular scenes like the s&m scene were very unnecessary). But the thing is the stuff they are writing out would NOT under any circumstances (budget, time-contraints, or awkward translating) be hard to adapt to screen. Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords both have great pacing and could easily translate on their own as the first book did so well.
I really thought the whole point of making this a TV series and not big-screen films was so they can include everything from the books and not have to make major rewrites like in Lord of the Rings.
Are the HBO execs bullying the writers into changing the story for more t*tties and sex? Or do some of the actors have inflated egos and demand more screen-time (seriously why is Aidan Gillen (Littlefinger) billed 3rd in the opening credits and randomly just appear in EVERY episode while Varys, someone with a much bigger presence in Clash of Kings than Littlefinger, hardly appears at all).
To me, it just seems that after the success and good word-of-mouth of Season 1, HBO was just like 'OK we have a hit now lets get super-involved with the production to ensure we can sustain interest with an audience over however long we feel like running this show."
sorry for the cynical rant, not trying to take anything out on you ITM, but I strongly feel that outside of the Battle of the Blackwater (which hasn't happened yet) nothing in Clash of Kings would have been unadaptable from any realistic or unrealistic factor.
Exactly I am not saying it is low quality television but it is more like the Harry Potter movie adaptations at this point. They are not bad especially as a stand alone, but they lost so much of the interesting characters and internal story lines that I find it hard to watch and not cringe at what they have done.
Post by itrainmonkeys on May 7, 2012 12:28:01 GMT -5
I thought the S&M scene was perfectly fine to show us that Joffrey is a sadistic dude. He's crazy and this helps show it IMO.
I know how it seems to you but they have 10 episodes a season to condense things down to. I'm sure that the decision makers of the show have good reasons for what they change. Martin is involved in the whole process so I can't imagine he's flipping his lid about the changes either. There was a lot of sex and a good amount of changes in the first season as well so I don't view this as HBO being like "now that it's a hit let's mess around with it".
But the thing is the stuff they are writing out would NOT under any circumstances (budget, time-contraints, or awkward translating) be hard to adapt to screen.
Obviously I am at a disadvantage having not read the books but I would assume that there are perfectly fine reasons that things have been changed. It's silly to think "They are changing this just to mess with the story". There are probably a number of real life reasons why things have to happen.
Several characters from A Clash of Kings are not known to have been cast for season two. These include:
-Ser Jacelyn Bywater; Bronn takes his place as new city watch commander in the adaptation -A pair of Crannogmen siblings, Meera and Jojen Reed -Two young Freys fostered at Winterfell, known as Big Walder and Little Walder -Roose Bolton's bastard son, Ramsay Snow -Strong Belwas, a eunuch warrior from Meeren sent by Illyrio to guard Daenerys -Davos Seaworth's other sons: Dale, Allard, Maric and Devan - Stannis's wife Selyse Florent, their daughter Shireen and their fool Patchface -The Tully family, including Catelyn's father Hoster and her brother Edmure -The mercenary leader Vargo Hoat and his sellsword company, the "Brave Companions" -Dunsen and Raff the Sweetling, two Lannister soldiers under Gregor Clegane's command
Showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have said that they would delay the introductions of several key characters first appearing in A Clash of Kings until the third season. They did so because of the large number of characters already introduced in season two, and because they couldn't afford to have people "waiting around" for their characters to become central to the plot
Exactly I am not saying it is low quality television but it is more like the Harry Potter movie adaptations at this point. They are not bad especially as a stand alone, but they lost so much of the interesting characters and internal story lines that I find it hard to watch and not cringe at what they have done.
Is there any movie or TV show that has faithfully adapted some work from another medium without making any changes? I can't think of too many good examples and to expect a 10-episode season to fit all the details of those massive books seems ambitious at the least.
I'm not saying you guys have to like it....just not sure that you had the right expectations. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that things get changed when a book is made into a movie, tv show, or play, etc.
It's a shame you guys find the changes to be so jarring that it affects your view of the show. I guess maybe you should expect to see things that will annoy you if you keep watching ( I know that some people hated a lot of the changes of the Walking Dead and it affected their enjoyment ). For me....I'm loving pretty much all of the things happening.
Showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have said that they would delay the introductions of several key characters first appearing in A Clash of Kings until the third season. They did so because of the large number of characters already introduced in season two, and because they couldn't afford to have people "waiting around" for their characters to become central to the plot
That's a perfectly justifiable reason IMO. There are storytelling reasons and financial reasons for it. I've seen tons of complaints already about the show having too many characters and people not knowing who is who until after a little while. Personally I was confused in the first few episodes about how many Stark children there were and what everyone's name was. I had to use a little spoiler-free chart from HBO to sort everyone out.
I feel that when you hear that a book that you enjoy is going to be made into a movie/tv show, there certainly are expectations! You want to see life put into your favorite characters!
I think making some changes is inevitable; but if they leave out characters and major plot points, I don't see how the end result could be the same. Example: How on EARTH are they leaving the Reed children out of the second season? (Unless the third season is going to have some elements of the second book in it?)
I just don't think its unreasonable to fit 1000 pages into 10 hours of showtime. That's 100 pages per episode, and about 30-40% of it is inner-monologue, flashbacks, physical setting and character descriptions that either can't be literally translated or can be in a one-second shot.
If you one day decide to read the books, ITM, you'll see that it's a lot less of condensing and writing out for the sake of time and budget, and a lot more of just replacing scenes for adding their own.
Geore RR Martin seems fine with it. and so am I. He's more than aware that the show and the books will eventually have two separate fan bases and he's going along with it because he's a cool easygoing guy from what I've gathered., and the show can serve as a distraction for the fans while he takes his sweet ass time writing the next few books.
I feel that when you hear that a book that you enjoy is going to be made into a movie/tv show, there certainly are expectations! You want to see life put into your favorite characters!
Certainly, but real life factors come into play. Can you imagine how much more money would need to be spent to hire an actor for every character just so they aren't left out of the show?
I think making some changes is inevitable; but if they leave out characters and major plot points, I don't see how the end result could be the same. Example: How on EARTH are they leaving the Reed children out of the second season? (Unless the third season is going to have some elements of the second book in it?)
I don't know much about them but I have read that people believe they'll be introduced in the third season. We'll see.
I just don't think its unreasonable to fit 1000 pages into 10 hours of showtime. That's 100 pages per episode, and about 30-40% of it is inner-monologue, flashbacks, physical setting and character descriptions that either can't be literally translated or can be in a one-second shot.
I'm so glad the show runners don't do that. That would be absolutely unbearable to watch.
I just don't think its unreasonable to fit 1000 pages into 10 hours of showtime. That's 100 pages per episode, and about 30-40% of it is inner-monologue, flashbacks, physical setting and character descriptions that either can't be literally translated or can be in a one-second shot.
I don't know how it all works but I'm not going to pretend that it's as easy as you say. This is a big time show for HBO (even before it premiered it had tons of buzz because HBO was taking on such an epic series and devoting lots of money to it) and I imagine there are a lot of decisions being made for a multitude of reasons. I just feel like some of the criticism for the changes is unfair (like saying they're doing it just to mess with the story even though we don't know the true reason).
Obviously you all have a right to be annoyed/angered by the changes. If this thread is going to be a weekly round of "wow those changes sucked" and "the book is so much better....they are screwing this up" I may just avoid it. Don't want to get involved and make me start to feel "Yea....this isn't as good as it could be" because as of now I'm loving it.
the Reeds will definitely be in the third season. No way you can justify writing them out. My guess is instead of being Crannogmen they will just be from one of the Northern villages and meet Bran along his way.
Ramsay Snow will definitely be in season 3 as well, given how Roose has already made mention of him, so we know he definitely exists in the TV version.
my guess here is that instead of being undercover as Reek (which will definitely not happen since Ser Roderick is dead) that he will just march on Winterfell under Roose's orders.
And I'm guessing that Vargo Hoat and the Brave Companions (or Bloody Mummers) will be introduced as the opposing force to Lord Beric and the Brotherhood without Banners. We know they'll be in it because the Tickler had asked about 'The Brotherhood' when doing that rat thing with Gendry.
