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I think this is a timely topic and deserves its own thread. I'm just sick about it and now apparently the latest effort by BP to plug the leak fails.
Now, I'm no engineer by any means, but wouldn't you think that before drilling a big hole in the earth's crust a mile underwater that they would have thought of a way to plug it BEFORE they did it? I mean, come on guys, this isn't a leaky kitchen faucet we're talking about. Its delicate ecosystems and people's livelihoods...
I would really appreciate anyone with an engineering and/or oil industry background weighing in on this.
I'm not an engineer or in the oil field. The pressures at the bottom of the sea are tremendous. The temperature at this depth is a degree or two above the freezing point of fresh water; cold oil is thicker, more viscous than warm oil. I believe the piping leading from the ocean floor to the surface are kept warm to facilitate the flow of oil.
There is also a lot of gas/methane coming out of this well. You can see it in the videos. Gas is a particular problem because it expands and cools as it rises and comes under less and less pressure on its way to the surface. I understand gas expansion, as it emerged from the drill hole, caused the ice plugs that prevented the use of a capture dome in the first attempt to deal with the leak. Also, I don't know if methane is dissolved in the oil under pressure? If so, the dissolved methane may bubble out as the oil is depressurized on its way to the surface; think of popping the top on a soda bottle. The tremendous difference in pressure from the sea bed to the surface means even a little dissolved gas may cause problems.
As the gas expands, it occupies a much greater volume of space. It was the expansion of gas/methane that caused the drill rig failure and fire in the initial accident, as I understand it.
Another problem is when a gas is compressed it loses volume, while liquids don't. Your flow control has to account for this difference to attenuate fluid hammers where alternating columns of compressed gas and slugs of liquid oil are hammering into your valves and pressure controls. But, this is what oil engineers are paid to do, except in the case, apparently, of the Deep Horizon oil rig; God rest her soul and the souls of the people who went down with her.
Among the many, many unanswered questions being studied now is the behavior of an oil and water mixture in deep ocean. Much if not most of the leaking oil has remained underwater. It can be found in massive plumes of finely dispersed oil droplets moving in variable directions from the well. Some say it was the use of dispersants that caused the oil to remain suspended as tiny droplets in the water column, but I don't know if this is definitive.
The prevailing scientific thinking says ocean bacteria will digest the oil in suspension. But, exponential bacterial growth will deplete the oxygen in the water, further upsetting the ecological balance in the area. Along with oxygen depletion, there must be an increase in CO2 production resulting from respiration by the sea bacteria. Increased CO2 will coincide with a decrease in pH from acidification, but I don't know if this will be significant.
Where oil has surfaced and tainted once extremely productive fishing and shellfish areas, temporary bans on fishing have been enacted. I read seafood harvested from the Chesapeake Bay region is now seeing a price increase, especially in Maryland; a reaction to decreasing harvests in the Gulf.
Last Edit: May 30, 2010 7:42:35 GMT -5 by RBRR - Back to Top
^^ very good. i'm impressed. yes, I understand that methane coexists with the oil as a byproduct of the breakdown of organic matter that produced the oil. Ironic when you consider that the breakdown of living matter could result in two such highly toxic substances. and I understand the concept of increased pressures of course, and its contribution to the situation.
As far as the pH balance, most living organisms have a fairly narrow range of tolerable pH. In humans a variation in either direction (acidosis or alkalosis) can be life-threatening if not corrected quicklly. I would think, like you said, that unless this massive CO2 production were rapidly dispersed, it would have catastrophic effects on wildlife.
this is the kind of discussion that I was looking for. Thanks for the highly intelligent analysis, riburro, and I'm giving you a +1.
I think a great deal of my frustration deals with the fact, that if I understand correctly, there was only one initial contingency plan for this - the blowoff valve, or whatever it was called, that failed. Understanding that a methane bubble could occur at any time under these conditions and cause a similar cascade of events, would it not have been prudent to have a second (at least) safety net in the event that the first failed?
The ecological effects of this disaster will be around for many generations. Here in this part of NC most of our seafood comes from the gulf. We will be eating oil and dispersant in our oysters and shrimp for 100's of years. I sincerely hope this stops my state NC, from exploring for offshore oil.
Are these oil rigs in international waters? Why do we keep letting foreign companies rape our ocean?
If the industry in the gulf is this vulnarable, can we expect more disasters in foreign oceans in the near future, or are we just incredibly below worldwide standards?
Personally I'm terrified of this coming summer. Not only will we have to wait and see how the Gulf's ecology is destroyed, and how many animals are killed, and how far along the Atlantic coast the oil reaches, but there are many other long-term unforseen implications. For instance, keep in mind that hurricane season is just around the corner. One article I read suggested that if a hurricane hits the oil slick, it could become exponentially worse than a hurricane usually is. Terrifying thought, indeed.
I was thinking a hurricane that tracks oil 200 miles inland would suck, after all Nashville was hit by Katrina and it was still classified as the weakest category of hurricane.
I was thinking a hurricane that tracks oil 200 miles inland would suck, after all Nashville was hit by Katrina and it was still classified as the weakest category of hurricane.
I was 7 in 1988 when hurricane Hugo hit us in the foothills of NC. It was category 2 still and eye passed over my hometown. Yeah it can for sure!
Post by wolfmanjack on May 31, 2010 21:50:12 GMT -5
The sad part about this whole thing is.....that it is all done for PROFIT! We need to eliminate profit from the minds of everyone...it always leads to humanities worst enemy....GREED! How much more will it take?
Post by monkeymonkeyjoyjoy on May 31, 2010 21:54:31 GMT -5
I'm with zenfnp....this was just put into the ocean with NO thoughts on 'what if this happens, what's the plan then?' Talk about just plain not thinking. Imagine that! This makes me cry daily, and it's going to cause effects that last way beyond today. There are still effects today from the Exxon spill in what, the 80s? I can feel Earth crying...
Providing an outlet and a voice for music lovers to unite under the common theme of music for all. Join The Pondo Army to show your allegiance to musical freedom! Fighting for no censorship of the arts & music education in schools, The Pondo Army will triumph! The Pondo Army Movement
Follow me on twitter@Pondoknowsbest
What does BP care? They're a foreign company so it's not their water. They fuck up and then ask for help from the government. It must be great to be in that type of business. Where you can screw up royally and the government will help you and people from all over will come to help clean up your mess. The part I really don't get is how this is Obama's fault.
Post by kungfukittay526 on Jun 1, 2010 13:27:56 GMT -5
This is a subject that hits so close to home.
It is a sad, sad time for my homeland. This oil is the beginning of extinction for a culture built upon the marshlands and the Gulf of Mexico. It seems we are helpless! And that is one thing we are not accustomed to. We can only sit by and witness our wild animals, our livelihoods, our food, our entire ecosystem suffocating beneath a thick sheen of oil.
All because some d@mn oil company cannot figure out how to staunch the endless flow of oil. An endless flow that could have been prevented!! This entire catastrophe could have been avoided if some @$$holes had done their jobs properly and ethically!!!! That is the one thing that makes me the most angry: if someone had played by the rules and regulations this would not have happened!!
We have always had something to worry about down here. In Golden Meadow, Grand Isle, Theriot, all the towns upon the waterways of Deep South Louisiana, we have watched our lands disappear from beneath our feet (partly because of oil companies digging canals and partly because of staunching of Mississippi River sediments). And we have been fighting for some type of solution to the disappearance of our home lands. But it seems we are unable to do much but witness this oil company failing us miserably.
This oil spill is something that is (seemingly) completely beyond our control. Yeah, we can go work for the oil company to help them clean up the mess they made. But you don't think that the oil company will help us years down the line when we are sick with some type of disease caused by exposure to such harsh chemicals? Because I surely know they have you sign waivers of liability so that Bp relinquishes all reliability for any medical problems that may happen as a result of exposure.
I live in South Louisiana and often I can smell the oil from my front door. It scares the hell out of me what will happen when the next hurricane comes through. Not to mention what is happening to our marshlands in the meantime. All I can say is that the future of Gulf of Mexico and the surrounding cultures feels and looks bleak. And I don't want to write that, much less think it!! But that's how it feels and it is making everyone here in the deep South very despondent.
The sad part about this whole thing is.....that it is all done for PROFIT! We need to eliminate profit from the minds of everyone...it always leads to humanities worst enemy....GREED! How much more will it take?
Sincerely, -Da' Wolf
^ Absolutely. Most of the time greed trumps empathy in people. So either we eliminate currency, or we make it profitable to help people. To cure instead of "treat", and to get healthy instead of fat and lazy. It's all basic really, and selfish. It's selfish for me to want to preserve my habitat and species, I'm not attacking anyone or their beliefs.
Ther are alot of Judgemental Hypocrites on this site.....alot of cool people too.
"Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." -Einstien
"All these primary impulses, not easily described in words, are the springs of man's actions." -Einstien
Post by thebigbuddha on Jun 3, 2010 14:06:51 GMT -5
I read somewhere that BP CHOSE to not install an acoustic switch which could have possibly prevented this "leak." The switch would have cost a mere $500,000 dollars. More money than I'll probably ever see, but nothing to BP, and it would have only been a fraction of what they will ultimately end up paying. So they ended up raping the planet, destroying a fragile ecology and distressing an entire nation for a little more change in their already massively deep pockets! It's a truly ugly affair on many levels.
On the other hand, 6 more days left! I only hope I can avoid thinking about it for at least a couple of days. BONNAROOO!!
ST. PETERSBURG — Scientists meeting here Wednesday to discuss the oil spill's effects on the Gulf of Mexico ecosystem had a visitor at the table with plenty of first-hand experience.
Phillip R. Mundy is the former scientific director for the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill Trustee Council. The council was formed to oversee $900 million worth of restoration to the injured Alaska ecosystem, where the Exxon Valdez tanker caused a huge spill in Prince William Sound in 1989, according to the council's website.
"They want to know what they're up against, and it's very, very sad," was Mundy's assessment as Florida scientists met to discuss the Deepwater Horizon spill’s consequences.
"It's very, very sad to me to come back and see this," he said.
His take?
In Alaska, he said they looked at what the oil had done to the environmental system, and how it had changed as a result.
Once, the herring fisheries there comprised some of the biggest in the Gulf of Alaska, said Mundy.
In 1993, four years after the spill, those populations collapsed, he said.
"After 1989, we quit fishing, we haven't fished for 15 years," Mundy said. "The herring population is very, very low. I can't tell you exactly how it worked, but it is obvious the oil triggered something in the ecosystem."
"You may be looking at the same kind of situation here with tuna," he surmised.
Post by rideincircles on Jun 4, 2010 17:03:32 GMT -5
If you haven't seen these pictures, Big Picture has 3 different galleries regarding the oil spill. The most recent ones of birds covered in oil are horrific and heartbreaking. They are now hittting most news websites, but the quality is best on this site. I will add more to this later.
I might as well post a warning since the bird pictures are horrific because they are still alive.
Post by monkeymonkeyjoyjoy on Jun 4, 2010 18:28:15 GMT -5
For perspective, I read that the Alaskan spill was like 11 or 12 million gallons...and the Gulf spill is possibly over 40 million gallons already. I think I read it's flowing out at 2.5 million gallons per day, and I don't know if that was before or after yesterday's fix-fail. The 'fix' that didn't work yesterday, left a fresh cut that is letting the flow out faster now. Apparently they think the soonest they can get it to stop is August. Everything hurts to see this and know what is happening. We can't do anything about it either. Totally depressing. I can't even imagine what it's like to be living there.
Post by pondo ROCKS on Jun 4, 2010 20:11:54 GMT -5
I just feel this sadness come over me when I see the pictures. That live link makes me ill every time I see the damn thing. Somehow they have to figure out something soon...
I just looked at some pictures of the wildlife and I swear I wanna slap the faces of every BP exec. who refused to install that leak switch. I hope they get what is coming to them
I refuse to go to a BP station EVER again after this...
Providing an outlet and a voice for music lovers to unite under the common theme of music for all. Join The Pondo Army to show your allegiance to musical freedom! Fighting for no censorship of the arts & music education in schools, The Pondo Army will triumph! The Pondo Army Movement
Follow me on twitter@Pondoknowsbest
Post by kungfukittay526 on Jun 4, 2010 22:39:48 GMT -5
I, too, hope that I can stop worrying about this long enough to enjoy myself at 'Roo. In fact, that is the plan. But until then, I am just going to try not to get too obsessed about it. But that is the hardest thing when I don't see the birds flying, when I smell oil; when I think of all those fishermen that are having to work for BP cleaning oil and are getting dreadfully sick; when I think of my friends in Pensacola, Ocean Springs, Biloxi getting sick from swimming in the Gulf.
There are no words to describe my heartache at watching my beloved swamps and marshlands suffocate at the hands of men.
And from what I understand GulfClean is an affiliate of BP company. I don't remember where I read that, but I remember seeing some skeezeball sitting behind the banner of Gulfclean.org . . . .
Here is an informative website about how we use petroleum products in our everyday life:
Dawn is donating soap to clean the animals. They have a sight for their charity arm www.dawn-dish.com/en_US/savingwildlife/home.do So far this has been the only thing that will remove the oil from the wildlife
IMHO, the gulf spill is a consequence added to the many others lately, as a cost of our excesses. If we can get out of the adolescent stage of nation development, and grow up, maybe things will turn around.
The rush for greed and the lapse in responsible contingency planning is just a microcosm of our national cognitive dissonance, from the levies in New Orleans to the lack of effective Finance Reform after the greatest economic catastrophe of the past 100 years. We're like obese children wandering around for a bag of chips when we have homework to do.
Ther are alot of Judgemental Hypocrites on this site.....alot of cool people too.
"Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." -Einstien
"All these primary impulses, not easily described in words, are the springs of man's actions." -Einstien
IMHO, the gulf spill is a consequence added to the many others lately, as a cost of our excesses. If we can get out of the adolescent stage of nation development, and grow up, maybe things will turn around.
The rush for greed and the lapse in responsible contingency planning is just a microcosm of our national cognitive dissonance, from the levies in New Orleans to the lack of effective Finance Reform after the greatest economic catastrophe of the past 100 years. We're like obese children wandering around for a bag of chips when we have homework to do.