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Post by Alberto Balsalm on Nov 14, 2012 13:21:19 GMT -5
I'm not "cherry-picking" stats. Those are pretty much the base set of stats that I use to evaluate all pitchers. Innings per start, strikeouts, walks, hits, home runs, WHIP and all the ERA-based peripherals. I think that's pretty standard to evaluate a pitcher's performance. That's what the pitchers can control. And Kershaw leads in all of them except innings and walks / K:BB.
And I'll give you K:BB ratio. But K/9 is pretty useless compared to K% considering pitchers don't face the same # of batters per 9 innings. K% is a much better indicator of who the better strikeout pitcher is. And quality starts are a joke, again Flanz you know better than that.
And since neither of us watched every game that Kershaw and weenieey both pitched this year, what else do we have to go by but stats? That IS what they did on the field, that IS what they did for their team. Yeah, the fact that weenieey did what he did while hurt was impressive. And he almost certainly would have had a better year than Kershaw if he wasn't. But he didn't. And again, the award is for the BEST PITCHER THIS SEASON. Not the toughest or the "best story" or whatever. What did the two players do, as pitchers, on the mound, for their team, this season. Kershaw did more.
Yeah, the fact that weenieey did what he did while hurt was impressive. And he almost certainly would have had a better year than Kershaw if he wasn't. But he didn't. And again, the award is for the BEST PITCHER THIS SEASON. Not the toughest or the "best story" or whatever. What did the two players do, as pitchers, on the mound, for their team, this season. Kershaw did more.
Doesn't change what he did on the field for his team this year
So, you accept that weenieey would've done better had he not pitched with a torn muscle, but don't think that should matter? Agree to disagree, but can you at least agree that if weenieey wins he's deserving?
Well, I"m thrilled your vote doesn't count.
And you're not Dunzo-ing me, are you? I just lost like 3 points i think.
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Nov 14, 2012 13:45:25 GMT -5
Haha, no, I never dunzo anyone. You're just losing those points because the people know that Kershaw was the better pitcher this year ;D
And no, I don't think it should matter because it doesn't change what actually happened on the field this year. I tried to look up the criteria that voters use to decide on the Cy Young, but I couldn't find it, but from what I understand the award is for this season's production, which Kershaw had more of. If the criteria does include things like toughness and feel-good stories then I might be swayed to change my vote, but to me the Cy Young should go to who pitched the best
Haha, no, I never dunzo anyone. You're just losing those points because the people know that Kershaw was the better pitcher this year ;D
And no, I don't think it should matter because it doesn't change what actually happened on the field this year. I tried to look up the criteria that voters use to decide on the Cy Young, but I couldn't find it, but from what I understand the award is for this season's production, which Kershaw had more of. If the criteria does include things like toughness and feel-good stories then I might be swayed to change my vote, but to me the Cy Young should go to who pitched the best
"Production" can be seen as season totals, not averages. Remember, half the guys voting for this award still don't know what fangraphs.com even is.
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Nov 14, 2012 13:54:34 GMT -5
Season totals will pretty much tell you the same thing considering they had the same number of starts and went almost the same amount of innings.
And the voters are starting to come around. Look at Felix's 2010 Cy Young campaign. Went 13-12 but beat out CC's 21 wins and Price' 19-6 because he was actually the better pitcher.
I still think weenieey probably wins this year though
Season totals will pretty much tell you the same thing considering they had the same number of starts and went almost the same amount of innings.
And the voters are starting to come around. Look at Felix's 2010 Cy Young campaign. Went 13-12 but beat out CC's 21 wins and Price' 19-6 because he was actually the better pitcher.
I still think weenieey probably wins this year though
Yeah, but Felix's #'s were much better, the divide between him and CC/Price was much wider than Kershaw/weenieey.
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Nov 14, 2012 14:04:12 GMT -5
Agreed, that was a more obvious call, which is why I think weenieey still probably wins this year. The voters are starting to come around though is the point. 20 years ago I'm certain that CC or Price would have won
To answer your question of whether I agree that if/when weenieey wins he's deserving?
Yes, weenieey had a Cy Young quality year. If you just look at his numbers and nobody elses and say "Is this good enough to win a Cy Young?" then yes. He had a fantastic year. I just think someone else deserves it more.
Similar to Miguel Cabrera in the AL MVP race. Yes, he had MVP-like production. Someone else just had more MVP-like production.
Agreed, that was a more obvious call, which is why I think weenieey still probably wins this year. The voters are starting to come around though is the point. 20 years ago I'm certain that CC or Price would have won
To answer your question of whether I agree that if/when weenieey wins he's deserving?
Yes, weenieey had a Cy Young quality year. If you just look at his numbers and nobody elses and say "Is this good enough to win a Cy Young?" then yes. He had a fantastic year. I just think someone else deserves it more.
Similar to Miguel Cabrera in the AL MVP race. Yes, he had MVP-like production. Someone else just had more MVP-like production.
Hah, I find it funny we disagree so vehemently about those two awards, and I don't even have homer ties to one of them.
When does this stupid thing get announced, anyway? I need to know whether or not I'm going to create my RA weenieey Appreciation Thread.
Hah yes, I know Fangraphs likes Kershaw better (believe it or not, I check the site regularly).
I don't discredit what you or Fangraphs is saying. We both have our points, I obviously want weenieey to win for selfish reasons (he deserves it, his family deserves it, the entire Mets fanbase in general deserves it for being sh*t on by their owners for 5 years), I'll understand if he doesn't win, but I'm going to be pissed.
Unless you produce something this awesome that's kershaw-related, this conversation is over!
The thing is that both sabermetrics and "old school" stats say Verlander. And Felix should've been second.
I can guarantee you that at least two of the following reasons are why Verlander didn't win:
1) He won both the Cy Young and MVP last year 2) David Price's team had more wins 3) David Price had more wins 4) Miggy's very likely going to win MVP, and they didn't want to give the team with the 7th best record in the AL the MVP AND Cy Young Winner. 5)Writer's are stupid and many of them are homers.
Also, scrolling though Flazo's post will probably get me banned from the public library I'm currently sitting in.
Edit: Never mind I was somehow looking at the wrong player on Fangraphs. Price did have a (miniscule) advantage in ERA. Still though.
Mar 14 Sheepdogs/Fitz & The Tantrums/City & Colour (Austin)
Mar 15 Jim James (Austin)
Apr 26 Jim James (Boston)
May 4 Clutch & The Sword (Portland ME)
Jun 8 DMB (Hartford)
Jun 21 Jim James (Northampton MA)
Jul 27-28 Newport Folk
Oct 25-27 MOEMS
Post by Homer J. Fong on Nov 20, 2012 11:59:37 GMT -5
Flanzo,
I've been hearing rumors/chatter about the Mets trading weenieey. Are they really that stupid? I'm not a Mets fan (clearly) but I pay more attention to the NL simply because my keeper league is NL only. From what I can tell, not only is weenieey a good pitcher (sure he'll probably regress, but he's been solid-to-good for several seasons now) but he's a fan favorite. Would the return they could get from trading the Cy Young winner really equal the goodwill they'd lose from their fans by trading away a guy like that? Or am I crazy and Mets fans couldn't give two sh*ts?
I've been hearing rumors/chatter about the Mets trading weenieey. Are they really that stupid? I'm not a Mets fan (clearly) but I pay more attention to the NL simply because my keeper league is NL only. From what I can tell, not only is weenieey a good pitcher (sure he'll probably regress, but he's been solid-to-good for several seasons now) but he's a fan favorite. Would the return they could get from trading the Cy Young winner really equal the goodwill they'd lose from their fans by trading away a guy like that? Or am I crazy and Mets fans couldn't give two sh*ts?
weenieey originally wanted a 4 year deal, then lowered that to 3 years with a duel option for the 4th year. Then the Mets said they'd offer 2, and weenieey said fine so long as it's $16+ mil.
And the Mets still haven't resigned him.
He's a guy that every Mets fan adores, the most beloved Met on the roster and is a PR gold-mine for whatever team he plays for. He's outspoken, but eloquent, so he is constantly speaking with perspective and humility that you simply don't see from athletes. Since the Mets have a huge working-class fan base this resonates with them. He took out a section of the Daily News after winning the Cy Young to issue a thank-you to the fans, team and individuals who helped him revive his career.
The team is weighing weenieey vs. prospects, and they're clearing trying to favor prospects (even if the trade offers aren't favorable), otherwise this whole exercise would be over with. If the Mets can get a Zack Wheeler-level prospect (the SP they swindled from San Fran in the Carlos Beltran deal), I'd think about it. But if you're trading RA for 2 B-level prospects? No. Not in a million years. This is NY and the owners are billionaires, if they want to run a moneyball style franchise, buy one where you don't make enough money and have to do things that way. Otherwise, you sign b-level players, keep your a-level players and develop your prospects. It's not rocket science.
Mets fans in no way want RA to get traded, know that the Mets' owners could give 2 sh*ts about what the fans think, and are resigned to expecting RA to be traded before spring training.
Mets extend David Wright, 8 years and $138 millino. I think they got off easy, to be honest, that deal comes out to averaging less than $17 million per if you include his 2013 salary (extension won't kick in until 2014).
weenieey is literally sitting around waiting for the Mets to stop shopping him so he can sign a 2-year deal. He wants 3rd year option so the Mets, in the height of maturity, took that and instead of countering just started publicly shopping weenieey.
Although they're apparently trying to pry Justin Upton from Arizona with John Niese as the main piece of the deal.
Mets extend David Wright, 8 years and $138 millino. I think they got off easy, to be honest, that deal comes out to averaging less than $17 million per if you include his 2013 salary (extension won't kick in until 2014).
weenieey is literally sitting around waiting for the Mets to stop shopping him so he can sign a 2-year deal. He wants 3rd year option so the Mets, in the height of maturity, took that and instead of countering just started publicly shopping weenieey.
Although they're apparently trying to pry Justin Upton from Arizona with John Niese as the main piece of the deal.
I still don't understand why Towers has been actively shopping Upton so much.
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Nov 30, 2012 14:46:48 GMT -5
Braves deal Tommy Hanson to Angels for Jordan Walden.
I like the deal for both teams, Hanson is way overrated and can't stay healthy and it clears up some money for the Braves to go after an OF. Angels get a decent arm to begin to make up for the loss of Haren (and lolsantana)
Post by Fiddler's Green on Nov 30, 2012 19:06:47 GMT -5
I'm so glad the Nationals got out of the Upton games. Not worth the money. Nats got their leadoff man in Denard Span for way cheaper and he's locked up for a couple of years.
