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The Mets scored 4.61 runs per Dickey start. The Dodgers scored 3.94 runs per Kershaw’s start. In fact, the "putrid" Mets scored more runs than the Dodgers on the whole. As to your 5 complete games point, Dickey had 6 more innings total than Kershaw. I think it’s safe to say that’s pretty negligible when they both threw ~230 innings.
Damnit Glenn you're using up all my arguments before I can get off my phone
The Mets scored 4.61 runs per Dickey start. The Dodgers scored 3.94 runs per Kershaw’s start. In fact, the "putrid" Mets scored more runs than the Dodgers on the whole. As to your 5 complete games point, Dickey had 6 more innings total than Kershaw. I think it’s safe to say that’s pretty negligible when they both threw ~230 innings.
So the argument is.....what, exactly? That the two of them are about the same for everything except ERA (.2 difference), so Kershaw should win?
The Mets scored 4.61 runs per Dickey start. The Dodgers scored 3.94 runs per Kershaw’s start. In fact, the "putrid" Mets scored more runs than the Dodgers on the whole. As to your 5 complete games point, Dickey had 6 more innings total than Kershaw. I think it’s safe to say that’s pretty negligible when they both threw ~230 innings.
So the argument is.....what, exactly? That the two of them are about the same for everything except ERA (.2 difference), so Kershaw should win?
My argument is that your argument that Dickey should win because of his superior record is a bad argument. To be honest I don’t really care who wins. They’re so close in a lot of areas that I don’t think it’s a big deal either way. I personally never said Kershaw should win btw.
My argument is that your argument that Dickey should win because of his superior record is a bad argument. To be honest I don’t really care who wins. They’re so close in a lot of areas that I don’t think it’s a big deal either way. I personally never said Kershaw should win btw.
Gron, c'mon buddy, I just said that shouldn't decide it, but it should factor in.
And I know, but you jumped on Alberto's bandwagon that said Kershaw, so I assumed.
Oh, and where does "RA Dickey pitched since APRIL with a torn abdominal muscle" factor into this? I think that carries weight as well.
Horn I was going to link you to a Youtube video of Torii Hunter making a fantastic catch but it turns out it was Gary Matthews Jr. Torii Hunter can catch too, don't worry.
Post by Longtime and Frequent Poster on Nov 14, 2012 12:54:56 GMT -5
If anything I think it’s unfair that it’s seemingly between these two guys. Gio is just as deserving IMO. Hell, I feel like Hamels should even be considered. I just don’t think there was one pitcher that clearly stood out over the next 4-5 in the NL this year.
Horn I was going to link you to a Youtube video of Torii Hunter making a fantastic catch but it turns out it was Gary Matthews Jr. Torii Hunter can catch too, don't worry.
That Gary Matthews Jr. catch is probably one of the five best catches from the last decade. So insane. I think the Angels OF in general probably has the other four over that time frame, too
If anything I think it’s unfair that it’s seemingly between these two guys. Gio is just as deserving IMO. Hell, I feel like Hamels should even be considered. I just don’t think there was one pitcher that clearly stood out over the next 4-5 in the NL this year.
See, I think Cueto should be in consideration over Gio. Gio's #'s were really good, but the only thing he lead the league in......was wins! Guess that rules him out.
Alberto, save me your sabermetrics nonsense, I know what you're going to say. Dickey deserves it by what he did on the field, plain and simple.
First off lol @ the willful ignorance of "Sabermetric nonsense". Whether you follow them or not it's pretty silly to cast it off as nonsense. Regardless, you don't even need to delve too deep into the sabermetrics to see that Kershaw was clearly the better pitcher this year. Funny that you bring up what they did on the field this year, let's take a look at what THEY actually did on the field this year as pitchers.
Outside of the last two, none of those are even saber stats. And Kershaw is still clearly the better pitcher. Kershaw was better at striking batters out, and Dickey gave up more baserunners, way more home runs, and more runs. Even the almighty ERA favors Kershaw, as well as the more telling saber ERA stats. The only thing Dickey did better was go less than 1 out deeper into games than Kershaw, and walk about 1 batter less every 2 starts. And despite this Kershaw's WHIP is still lower.
So that's what they did on the field. Pretty clear Kershaw was a better pitcher.
But Dickey had more WINZ!!!! Ricky Nolasco had 12 wins this year and Cliff Lee had 6 wins and Nolasco was on the "worse team". Nolasco was the better pitcher, right? ???
And like glennron said, you say "worse team", yet Dickey got more run support than Kershaw all year. This is the main contributor to Dickey's advantage in wins, clearly, since Kershaw obviously outperformed him on the field as seen above. The award goes to the best pitcher, not a good pitcher with a better offense and other things that a pitcher can't control that helps a team win games. And the better pitcher was Kershaw, plain and simple.
Also horn I don't get how you can be anti-"one person deserves the award". With all the information we have access to these days, and considering the fact that no two players will ever have an identical season, there will ALWAYS be a best player who deserves the award. I don't see how you can argue that.
If anything I think it’s unfair that it’s seemingly between these two guys. Gio is just as deserving IMO. Hell, I feel like Hamels should even be considered. I just don’t think there was one pitcher that clearly stood out over the next 4-5 in the NL this year.
See, I think Cueto should be in consideration over Gio. Gio's #'s were really good, but the only thing he lead the league in......was wins! Guess that rules him out.
Yeah I forgot to mention Cueto. That's kind of my point though. There's a solid handful of guys that had similarly great seasons to the point where I don't think anyone should really be upset if their guy doesn't win.
Alberto, save me your sabermetrics nonsense, I know what you're going to say. Dickey deserves it by what he did on the field, plain and simple.
First off lol @ the willful ignorance of "Sabermetric nonsense". Whether you follow them or not it's pretty silly to cast it off as nonsense. Regardless, you don't even need to delve too deep into the sabermetrics to see that Kershaw was clearly the better pitcher this year. Funny that you bring up what they did on the field this year, let's take a look at what THEY actually did on the field this year as pitchers.
Outside of the last two, none of those are even saber stats. And Kershaw is still clearly the better pitcher. Kershaw was better at striking batters out, and Dickey gave up more baserunners, way more home runs, and more runs. Even the almighty ERA favors Kershaw, as well as the more telling saber ERA stats. The only thing Dickey did better was go about 1 out deeper into games than Kershaw, and walk about 1 batter less every 2 starts. Yet Kershaw's WHIP is still lower.
So that's what they did on the field. Pretty clear Kershaw was a better pitcher.
But Dickey had more WINZ!!!! Ricky Nolasco had 12 wins this year and Cliff Lee had 6 wins and Nolasco was on the "worse team". Nolasco was the better pitcher, right? ???
And like glennron said, you say "worse team", yet Dickey got more run support than Kershaw all year. This is the main contributor to Dickey's advantage in wins, clearly, since Kershaw obviously outperformed him on the field as seen above. The award goes to the best pitcher, not a good pitcher with a better offense and other things that a pitcher can't control that helps a team win games. And the better pitcher was Kershaw, plain and simple.
Also horn I don't get how you can be anti-"one person deserves the award". With all the information we have access to these days, and considering the fact that no two players will ever have an identical season, there will ALWAYS be a best player who deserves the award. I don't see how you can argue that.
I can cherry-pick stats that RA was better in also, you know.
K/9, quality starts, K/BB ratio and all the season total marks (which DO matter, it's a marathon not a sprint and season totals count for something).
RA pitched with a torn muscle the entire season.
RA had a much worse bullpen (as important as run support).
It's not clear-cut. The arrogance you use when you post in this thread is really frustrating, you're not like this in any other threads. You're a stat-head, for NFL I'm the same way. I know every advanced metric for the NFL, but I don't use just stats. And before you tell me baseball is an individual sport and stats mean more, I know that already. My point is, you can't just look at stats, it's not human nature to sit and stare at a sheet of paper and go "okay, I made my decision."
You may want the voters to take out the "other stuff," but we both know that isn't likely to happen.
Even if it was, I still say RA wins it since the differences in stats are negligible in most cases and Dickey was hurt ALL YEAR.
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Nov 14, 2012 13:21:19 GMT -5
I'm not "cherry-picking" stats. Those are pretty much the base set of stats that I use to evaluate all pitchers. Innings per start, strikeouts, walks, hits, home runs, WHIP and all the ERA-based peripherals. I think that's pretty standard to evaluate a pitcher's performance. That's what the pitchers can control. And Kershaw leads in all of them except innings and walks / K:BB.
And I'll give you K:BB ratio. But K/9 is pretty useless compared to K% considering pitchers don't face the same # of batters per 9 innings. K% is a much better indicator of who the better strikeout pitcher is. And quality starts are a joke, again Flanz you know better than that.
And since neither of us watched every game that Kershaw and Dickey both pitched this year, what else do we have to go by but stats? That IS what they did on the field, that IS what they did for their team. Yeah, the fact that Dickey did what he did while hurt was impressive. And he almost certainly would have had a better year than Kershaw if he wasn't. But he didn't. And again, the award is for the BEST PITCHER THIS SEASON. Not the toughest or the "best story" or whatever. What did the two players do, as pitchers, on the mound, for their team, this season. Kershaw did more.
Yeah, the fact that Dickey did what he did while hurt was impressive. And he almost certainly would have had a better year than Kershaw if he wasn't. But he didn't. And again, the award is for the BEST PITCHER THIS SEASON. Not the toughest or the "best story" or whatever. What did the two players do, as pitchers, on the mound, for their team, this season. Kershaw did more.
Doesn't change what he did on the field for his team this year
So, you accept that Dickey would've done better had he not pitched with a torn muscle, but don't think that should matter? Agree to disagree, but can you at least agree that if Dickey wins he's deserving?
Well, I"m thrilled your vote doesn't count.
And you're not Dunzo-ing me, are you? I just lost like 3 points i think.
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Nov 14, 2012 13:45:25 GMT -5
Haha, no, I never dunzo anyone. You're just losing those points because the people know that Kershaw was the better pitcher this year ;D
And no, I don't think it should matter because it doesn't change what actually happened on the field this year. I tried to look up the criteria that voters use to decide on the Cy Young, but I couldn't find it, but from what I understand the award is for this season's production, which Kershaw had more of. If the criteria does include things like toughness and feel-good stories then I might be swayed to change my vote, but to me the Cy Young should go to who pitched the best
Haha, no, I never dunzo anyone. You're just losing those points because the people know that Kershaw was the better pitcher this year ;D
And no, I don't think it should matter because it doesn't change what actually happened on the field this year. I tried to look up the criteria that voters use to decide on the Cy Young, but I couldn't find it, but from what I understand the award is for this season's production, which Kershaw had more of. If the criteria does include things like toughness and feel-good stories then I might be swayed to change my vote, but to me the Cy Young should go to who pitched the best
"Production" can be seen as season totals, not averages. Remember, half the guys voting for this award still don't know what fangraphs.com even is.
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Nov 14, 2012 13:54:34 GMT -5
Season totals will pretty much tell you the same thing considering they had the same number of starts and went almost the same amount of innings.
And the voters are starting to come around. Look at Felix's 2010 Cy Young campaign. Went 13-12 but beat out CC's 21 wins and Price' 19-6 because he was actually the better pitcher.
I still think Dickey probably wins this year though
Season totals will pretty much tell you the same thing considering they had the same number of starts and went almost the same amount of innings.
And the voters are starting to come around. Look at Felix's 2010 Cy Young campaign. Went 13-12 but beat out CC's 21 wins and Price' 19-6 because he was actually the better pitcher.
I still think Dickey probably wins this year though
Yeah, but Felix's #'s were much better, the divide between him and CC/Price was much wider than Kershaw/Dickey.
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Nov 14, 2012 14:04:12 GMT -5
Agreed, that was a more obvious call, which is why I think Dickey still probably wins this year. The voters are starting to come around though is the point. 20 years ago I'm certain that CC or Price would have won
To answer your question of whether I agree that if/when Dickey wins he's deserving?
Yes, Dickey had a Cy Young quality year. If you just look at his numbers and nobody elses and say "Is this good enough to win a Cy Young?" then yes. He had a fantastic year. I just think someone else deserves it more.
Similar to Miguel Cabrera in the AL MVP race. Yes, he had MVP-like production. Someone else just had more MVP-like production.
Agreed, that was a more obvious call, which is why I think Dickey still probably wins this year. The voters are starting to come around though is the point. 20 years ago I'm certain that CC or Price would have won
To answer your question of whether I agree that if/when Dickey wins he's deserving?
Yes, Dickey had a Cy Young quality year. If you just look at his numbers and nobody elses and say "Is this good enough to win a Cy Young?" then yes. He had a fantastic year. I just think someone else deserves it more.
Similar to Miguel Cabrera in the AL MVP race. Yes, he had MVP-like production. Someone else just had more MVP-like production.
Hah, I find it funny we disagree so vehemently about those two awards, and I don't even have homer ties to one of them.
When does this stupid thing get announced, anyway? I need to know whether or not I'm going to create my RA Dickey Appreciation Thread.
Hah yes, I know Fangraphs likes Kershaw better (believe it or not, I check the site regularly).
I don't discredit what you or Fangraphs is saying. We both have our points, I obviously want Dickey to win for selfish reasons (he deserves it, his family deserves it, the entire Mets fanbase in general deserves it for being sh*t on by their owners for 5 years), I'll understand if he doesn't win, but I'm going to be pissed.
Unless you produce something this awesome that's kershaw-related, this conversation is over!