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oh, and I hate to double post, but I totally agree with the overproduction comment as well. I was watching a documentary* on the Pistols, and in an interview with Bill Price, he said he actually cleaned up the songs a lot until they were finely polished, and he and all the band members hated the result, so he "unproduced" a lot of it.
At the same time, you really have to give credit where it's due; the production value on that album is some of the finest I've ever heard.
*this is the documentary - it's kind of hard to come by, but if you do manage to find it, by all means, buy it immediately. It's stacked with very rare videos of live performances, which are spliced in between interviews with the original four Pistols, Malcolm McLaren and others.
I would agree with this except that the misuse of the term punk has lead to an inordinate amount of bands that sound like nofx. Nofx is not a punk band. Nothing that overproduced is punk. This has lead to a complete disintegration of punk music in many aspects. I agree with your sentiment, but having spent so much of my life involved with punk and seeing what pseudo-punk bands did to the little bit that was left of the true punk scene, I have got to say that the term is completely misused. It's like calling Bon-Jovi a heavy metal band.
YES YES YES! A thousand times, YES! NOFX, Blink 182, Green Day, et cetera are not punk, they never were punk, and it is grating to my ears everytime I hear them referred to as punk. They are simply pop punk...
Confused by your comment... let me clarify. NOFX isn't punk, they are pop-punk, but isn't pop-punk a branch of punk, because it's in the name... so you contradict yourself. "NOFX isn't punk, they are pop-punk" It doesn't matter if a band is folk-punk like flogging molly or the pogues... at the end of the day they still fall into the category of punk.
I understand what you are saying, but I think NOFX has a bit of punk in them, it's not an act or a front, they are who they are, and if it wasn't for Fat Mike owning Fat Wreck Chords then you might not know Against Me!, Rise Against, Less Than Jake, Anti-Flag, and all these other bands who started getting some form of success. They could be nobodies for all you know. Would you not call any of those bands remotely punk?
And I'm not saying you want to know who any of those bands are, but I would be severely disappointed at life if I never heard of Against Me!
2/5- Papadosio 3/3- MUSE 3/12- John Mayer 3/19- The Werks 3/31- Passion Pit 4/18- Ben Folds 4/20- Against Me! 6/10- Bonnaroo 6/30- Eric Clapton and Roger Daltrey
Post by jumpinjamesbrown on Feb 5, 2009 10:06:24 GMT -5
so if nofx isn't punk can you name some punk bands and please don't say the ramones, the sex pistols or the clash because the argument can be made that those 3 all made pop music.
Post by jumpinjamesbrown on Feb 5, 2009 10:12:58 GMT -5
i just think for the most part punk music is anything that sounds of the cuff with lyrics that don't make much sense at first glance and you hear by the time you think you have finished listening to one song you have probably heard 5. just my basic opinion. i mean some of my favorite punk bands are the dwarves, stiff little fingers, be your own pet and superjoint ritual although you can make the argument that the last one if metal but i think at the root it's more punk than anything.
Post by Fishing Maniac on Feb 5, 2009 13:16:13 GMT -5
OK. Pop punk is a sub genre of punk that includes the likes of The Queers, Screeching Weasel, The Vindictives, etc. NOFX, Blink 182, Lagwagon, et. al. I would refer to as pseudo-punk. My term (although I probably stole it from somehwere) not one commonly used. Basically, they try to hard. They are poser punk. Pop punk refers to bands who (for the most part) imitate The Ramones, who by the way, did not call themselves punk, but rather "nouveau bubble gum". How could you listen to the likes of Rockaway Beach, Do You Wanna Dance, Palisades Park, Bob Til you Drop {the list is endless} and not hear bubblegum.
I would agree completely that the label of punk rock is in many ways undefinable. I often use the term "punk rock" as an adjective to describe artists that would not fall into the "category" of Punk Rock. Beethoven springs to mind. The man wrote music on other peoples front doors because it popped into his head, then came back to copy it down later. I mean vandalism as composition - is anything more punk rock than that? Where as the redundant ever similar fast yet overly clean guitar riffs of nofx, blink 182, et. al. creating a myriad of carbon copy music that vaguely imitates some of the least important and least creative traits of a genre - is anything less punk rock than that?
As far pop music, Punk is a form of Pop Music. Watch The Great Rock n' Roll Swindle and you will see malcom McClaren repeatedly refer to the Sex Pistols as an exercise in pop music. This would stand to reason considering that he also managed the likes of the New York Dolls and Bow Wow Wow.
Back when I was a punk you could tell the punks from the posers pretty easy. It didn't have so much to with what you wore or what you listened too. It was all about trying too hard. Either punk found you or you found punk and tried imitate it. NOFX tries way too hard. Most of the bands that sound like them imitate them. Imitating posers - does it get any more pathetic?
Green Day, FWIW, while I don't care for them and don't listen to them, get a nod for fitting into the category of punk rock. They are oft crucified on the cross of their commercial success and even more so for embracing it. To this end I can only quote Johnny Rotten as he uttered at the Sex Pistols last performance in San Fransisco on January 14, 1978 "Where's our money?". Punk in it's truest form at the get go was all about making money. At least it was once it was given a label, and that's why it was given a label -to make it a tangible product.
Oh and can I name 3 punk bands? ;D Let's see.
The Business, Infa Riot, Red alert, The Cramps, Dead Kennedys, The Germs, The mintemen, Black Flag, Subhumans, Sham 69, X-Ray Spex, Souxie and the BAnshees, The DAmned, The gonads, Peter and the TEst Tube Babies, One Way System, JFA, Teh Offenders, The Krays (who I once turned down an offer to join - stupidly), Stiff Little Fingers, U.K. Subs, Minor Threat, Sea Monster ( who I sit in with regularly), Violent Society, The Waldos, Teh Dead Boys, Television, The vibrators, Buzzcocks, Reagan Youth, The Plasmatics, Quincy Punks, Blanks 77, Bug Out Society, Crass, Generation X, The Rezillos, The Boils, Oxymoron, The Adicts, The 4 Skins, Cockney Rejects, The Ejected, The Pist, Anti-heros, Blitz... I could go on. And on. And on some more. However, I need toget back to work. I'm no longer a punk. Now I'm a corporate sell out. Just like punk rock and festival bookings, it's all about the money.
YES YES YES! A thousand times, YES! NOFX, Blink 182, Green Day, et cetera are not punk, they never were punk, and it is grating to my ears everytime I hear them referred to as punk. They are simply pop punk, that watered down, bubblegummy, commercial bullhonkey, complete with blunted corners so it's safe for the kiddies. Punk's not meant to sound clean and refined; it's meant to be stripped down and raw. One of the major driving forces behind the whole punk movement were the dissatisfaction at how tame commercial rock had become; well, congratu-quacking-lations, pop punk bands - you are the epitome of everything your predecessors stood against.
Eh, I don't think you're giving NOFX any credit. Yeah, today they're pop punk but when they started out I think they atleast could say were semi punk. Now Blink 182 and Greenday were never ever punk. It's pretty harsh to roll NOFX into the same crowd as Blink 182 and Greenday.
OK. Pop punk is a sub genre of punk that includes the likes of The Queers, Screeching Weasel, The Vindictives, etc. NOFX, Blink 182, Lagwagon, et. al. I would refer to as pseudo-punk. My term (although I probably stole it from somehwere) not one commonly used. Basically, they try to hard. They are poser punk. Pop punk refers to bands who (for the most part) imitate The Ramones, who by the way, did not call themselves punk, but rather "nouveau bubble gum". How could you listen to the likes of Rockaway Beach, Do You Wanna Dance, Palisades Park, Bob Til you Drop {the list is endless} and not hear bubblegum.
I would agree completely that the label of punk rock is in many ways undefinable. I often use the term "punk rock" as an adjective to describe artists that would not fall into the "category" of Punk Rock. Beethoven springs to mind. The man wrote music on other peoples front doors because it popped into his head, then came back to copy it down later. I mean vandalism as composition - is anything more punk rock than that? Where as the redundant ever similar fast yet overly clean guitar riffs of nofx, blink 182, et. al. creating a myriad of carbon copy music that vaguely imitates some of the least important and least creative traits of a genre - is anything less punk rock than that?
As far pop music, Punk is a form of Pop Music. Watch The Great Rock n' Roll Swindle and you will see malcom McClaren repeatedly refer to the Sex Pistols as an exercise in pop music. This would stand to reason considering that he also managed the likes of the New York Dolls and Bow Wow Wow.
Back when I was a punk you could tell the punks from the posers pretty easy. It didn't have so much to with what you wore or what you listened too. It was all about trying too hard. Either punk found you or you found punk and tried imitate it. NOFX tries way too hard. Most of the bands that sound like them imitate them. Imitating posers - does it get any more pathetic?
Green Day, FWIW, while I don't care for them and don't listen to them, get a nod for fitting into the category of punk rock. They are oft crucified on the cross of their commercial success and even more so for embracing it. To this end I can only quote Johnny Rotten as he uttered at the Sex Pistols last performance in San Fransisco on January 14, 1978 "Where's our money?". Punk in it's truest form at the get go was all about making money. At least it was once it was given a label, and that's why it was given a label -to make it a tangible product.
Oh and can I name 3 punk bands? ;D Let's see.
The Business, Infa Riot, Red alert, The Cramps, Dead Kennedys, The Germs, The mintemen, Black Flag, Subhumans, Sham 69, X-Ray Spex, Souxie and the BAnshees, The DAmned, The gonads, Peter and the TEst Tube Babies, One Way System, JFA, Teh Offenders, The Krays (who I once turned down an offer to join - stupidly), Stiff Little Fingers, U.K. Subs, Minor Threat, Sea Monster ( who I sit in with regularly), Violent Society, The Waldos, Teh Dead Boys, Television, The vibrators, Buzzcocks, Reagan Youth, The Plasmatics, Quincy Punks, Blanks 77, Bug Out Society, Crass, Generation X, The Rezillos, The Boils, Oxymoron, The Adicts, The 4 Skins, Cockney Rejects, The Ejected, The Pist, Anti-heros, Blitz... I could go on. And on. And on some more. However, I need toget back to work. I'm no longer a punk. Now I'm a corporate sell out. Just like punk rock and festival bookings, it's all about the money.
You pretty much summed up my thoughts on punk rock right there. The only thing I would have to slightly disagree on is that punk was about making money.
I agree that once it was given a label, it was just another marketing scheme. That being said, I think there was always a large segment of the early punk bands that were in it simply for the music. I don't think any of them were opposed to making money, I mean, who would turn down a chance to make cash playing music? However, a lot of those bands simply made money by selling records, playing gigs and selling some homemade shirts. It was a type of music that reached people and in turn, some bands were bound to make some money.
The Sex Pistols, in my mind, were the first pop-punk band. And by that, I mean they tried to be punk, like the pop-punk bands of today. They were more image than anything. They showed up at the perfect time dressed like punks, put out a mediocre album and milked every bit of cash they can get from it to this day. As you can probably tell, I'm not a Sex Pistols fan
Oh, and that was a pretty solid list of bands. I'm going to see U.K. Subs in a couple of months. It's always fun when they stop by the Albert.
YES YES YES! A thousand times, YES! NOFX, Blink 182, Green Day, et cetera are not punk, they never were punk, and it is grating to my ears everytime I hear them referred to as punk. They are simply pop punk, that watered down, bubblegummy, commercial bullhonkey, complete with blunted corners so it's safe for the kiddies. Punk's not meant to sound clean and refined; it's meant to be stripped down and raw. One of the major driving forces behind the whole punk movement were the dissatisfaction at how tame commercial rock had become; well, congratu-quacking-lations, pop punk bands - you are the epitome of everything your predecessors stood against.
Eh, I don't think you're giving NOFX any credit. Yeah, today they're pop punk but when they started out I think they atleast could say were semi punk. Now Blink 182 and Greenday were never ever punk. It's pretty harsh to roll NOFX into the same crowd as Blink 182 and Greenday.
^^perhaps - I'm not too familiar with NOFX's earlier work - only what they've released in the last twelve years or so. You could make the case that Greenday's first couple albums were punk, before they had any mainstream success, but everything from Dookie onwards has been a mix of alternative and pop punk.
And don't get me wrong - I actually like Green Day. They were one of the first bands I discovered on my own, back when I was 10 years old - I even saw them in concert when I was 15. Before I got into Green Day, I'd just been listening almost exclusively to top 40 songs and the oldies my parents brought me up with. But even back then, I thought of them more as alternative / pop punk than anything else.
YES YES YES! A thousand times, YES! NOFX, Blink 182, Green Day, et cetera are not punk, they never were punk, and it is grating to my ears everytime I hear them referred to as punk. They are simply pop punk...
Confused by your comment... let me clarify. NOFX isn't punk, they are pop-punk, but isn't pop-punk a branch of punk, because it's in the name... so you contradict yourself. "NOFX isn't punk, they are pop-punk" It doesn't matter if a band is folk-punk like flogging molly or the pogues... at the end of the day they still fall into the category of punk.
I understand what you are saying, but I think NOFX has a bit of punk in them, it's not an act or a front, they are who they are, and if it wasn't for Fat Mike owning Fat Wreck Chords then you might not know Against Me!, Rise Against, Less Than Jake, Anti-Flag, and all these other bands who started getting some form of success. They could be nobodies for all you know. Would you not call any of those bands remotely punk?
And I'm not saying you want to know who any of those bands are, but I would be severely disappointed at life if I never heard of Against Me!
I think pop-punk isn't really punk; it's just pop that tries to package itself as punk. I think fishingmaniac said it best - bands like that simply try too hard to be punk, and when you're actively trying to be punk, you aren't being punk. Punk isn't about green mohawks and studded leather jackets and facial piercings and stuff. I couldn't give a crap about the way you dress – you could show up to a gig in a turtleneck and a tutu for all I care.
To me, punk is not about your image, it's about your ethos. Joan of Arc was punk. Jesus was punk. The Founding Fathers were punk. Hell, even the old school pioneers of hip-hop were punk. All of these people were embracing their radical ideas and doing something new and different, while taking a stand against whatever was dissatisfying them.
In a nutshell, I believe that what's at the very core of punk is the idea that you should march to the beat of your own drum and fuck what everyone else thinks about it. It's sort of hard to do that when you sound exactly like every other band out there. Being punk is like being cool; the more you try to pull it off, the less likely you are to actually do so.
Who really cares what PUNK is all I know is I want it on the farm
You sir are cool.
In response to Jacks reference to hip hop pioneers being punk: When Blondie did Rapture (credited as the first rap video by some) it was the result of the band being introduced to Fab 5 Freddie, hip hp proponent and prominent graffiti artist from NYC (hence his bi line in the sing). They brought him to CBGB's and he great similarity in the punk atmosphere with CB's being all tagged up. Furthermore if you consider the amount of influence that reggae had on early punk rock and has on hip hop they become even more closely related. Combine that with the obvious influence that old school rap music had on later Clash recordings (at which time one could argue that they evolved far beyond a punk band and become their own defining force in commercially successful Rock n' Roll) and then onto Mick Jones work in B.A.D. where he actually sampled the Clash along with other acts. Some of these attributes can be found in Joe Strummers solo material as well. These were two guys that just did/do what they feel.
I grew up on punk/ska/hardcore and still go to a lot of shows. Would love to see more at Roo, though some fits better than other!
I think anyone who falls into the "folk punk" category would fit in well at Roo....Against Me!, Gogol, Chuck Ragan, Billy Bragg, Gaslight Anthem, Tom Gabel, Violent Femmes, Pogues, This Bike is a Pipebomb, Weakerthans....all would be great..
and people mentioned bands like Flogging Molly, Dropkicks and Rancid...always put on great shows...though if people were upset about the moshing during Against Me last year, that was nothing compared to these three Other, more pop/surf punk bands are great live and have a lot of energy, but I just don't think NOFX, Bad Religion, Pennywise, Face to Face, Goldfinger, etc quite fit in. Maybe some bands like Rise Against, Strike Anywhere, Alkaline Trio, Bad Brains, but it'd still be a bit strange at Roo, and VERY rowdy.
Any older or more musically skilled ska bands would be fun....Streetlight Manifesto, Bosstones, LTJ, Mustard Plug, Toasters, Skatalites, Specials
The post-hardcore/prog metal sound seems to work well for a lot of people, so lets get some Glassjaw, Hot Water Music, ...And You Will Know Us By The Trail of Dead, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Between the Buried and Me, Dillinger Escape Plan, Vovoid
And maybe some fun reunions as mentioned before! At the Drive-In (I wish!), Fugazi, Black Flag, Op Ivy, Husker Du. Minutemen, Minor Threat, or really anyone else from the 80s hardcore scene
I am really liking the way this guy is thinking. Mmm, Against Me!, Gogol, Tom Gabel, Violent Femmes, Rise Against, Goldfinger, Streetlight, Bosstones, Glassjaw, AND At the Drive-In? I love them all and if any of them played I'd be completely happy for the rest of my life.
All the debate over which of these bands are punk is a little silly. EVERY band we've mentioned in this thread is punk, unless maybe they are a pure ska band, which few have been. Punk has been around for decades and had enough influence on newer music that it can really be considered an entire genre on it's own, just like rock, country, electronic, etc. It has a TON of sub-genres. The Sex Pistol's don't sound like Blink 182, but both are punk, just like Elvis doesn't sound like Foo Fighters but both are rock. Or Willie and Kenney Chesney with country. All music evolves. In the end, punk has always been about a buncha people getting together and having a good time, staying off the streets and out of trouble, more or less It has always been about being a little, or a lot, different from other people and usually singing about something this is likely going to PISS a lot of other people off. All of this still holds true now. I think Kurt Cobain, who considered punk a major influence, said it best: "Punk is musical freedom. It's saying, doing and playing what you want." Anyways, just thought I'd throw my theory on all of this out. Things have changed a lot with punk, but every band we've mentioned still puts on a helluva fun show, even if it's just the album played back on stage, with the usual screwups! So let's all get along, hope for maybe a fun punk/ska/hardcore add or two, and stop arguing like a bunch of little "scene" kids
PS: Warped is going to be awesome this year for some of our "older" punk bands...Bad Religion, Bouncing Souls, NOFX, Anti-Flag, Flogging Molly, Less Than Jake, Thrice, Streetlight Manifesto! I'll put up with the little kids and def be there for that!
haha, well I definitely won't argue that a lot of punk bands suck or at least can be VERY irritating..I can't stand most pop punk anymore...most of the pop punk bands that started in the last 10 years sound awful without a studio anyways, so seeing them live is very annoying..Blink is a perfect example...Tom can't sing! ugh!
that last band i saw open for the queens was throw rag and that was a wild ride
Throw Rag is fucking incredible. Unfortunately their washboard player isn't with them anymore. I met that dude after one of their shows and he is legitimately a nutcase. He was trying to sell us jewlery. He really wanted to sign the poster that I bought, he was amazed at the level of detail on the cartoon chicks boobs.
If you don't want to read all that, heres a summary: Bert McCracken has declared that "screamo" is merely a term "for record companies to sell records and for record stores to categorize them."[34] The groups generally prefer to be described as post-hardcore.
I've heard of a few of those bands and they are def good, and far better than what the media/MTV calls screamo these days. With me I guess if I like the band they go to the post-hardcore or just hardcore category (Glassjaw, Thrice, Hot Water Music, Taking Back Sunday, Comeback Kid, Poison the Well, Between the Buried and Me) and if I don't like or have become indifferent to them, they are screamo (The Used, My Chem Romance, Hawthorne Heights, Senses Fail, Aiden, most anyone of the bands Victory Records has finally dropped!). Anyways, all "screamo" isn't bad, but then, clearly all "screamo" isn't what we think it is
Post by unfamousjames on Feb 10, 2009 19:06:41 GMT -5
I'm glad there isn't any punk or metal on the initial lineup. I'm sure there will be some once more artists are announced, but hot weather and punk/metal just don't go together.
I'm glad there isn't any punk or metal on the initial lineup. I'm sure there will be some once more artists are announced, but hot weather and punk/metal just don't go together.
I'm pretty sure Phil Anselmo would have something to say about "there isn't any punk or metal on the initial lineup."
Other, more pop/surf punk bands are great live and have a lot of energy, but I just don't think NOFX, Bad Religion, Pennywise, Face to Face, Goldfinger, etc quite fit in. Maybe some bands like Rise Against, Strike Anywhere, Alkaline Trio, Bad Brains, but it'd still be a bit strange at Roo, and VERY rowdy.
